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Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by QAPereo on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @06:22PM (#15495469)
What’s more remarkable to me is that people happily offer up this data on themselves, and what worries me is what intelligence agencies do to spy on people who care enough not to broadcast their every movement, meal, and stray thought.
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by anigbrowl on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @07:50PM (#15495917)
It's kind of rational to do so. I mean, individuals cannot realistically compete with governments who want to oppress them unless they're monumentally stubborn and self-sacrificing, but the various benefits of sharing information on social media has measurable upsides for thema s consumers - they get to meet friends, receive advertising on topics of genuine interest, and so on, which may outweigh the relatively low probability of direct repression.

There's a parallel phenomenon in political behavior that's ably explained in Brian Caplan's The Myth of the Rational Voter.

You could practice really rigorous security culture and avoid creating any digital footprint worth talking about in the first place, but then you'd be socially isolated to a degree that was economically disadvantageous (economically meaning in multiple contexts besides purely fiscal). And to the degree that you can be socially connected, inferences could still be made about you through the behavior of your friends.

As a crude example, recall that Osama bin Laden's hiding place was determined to be interesting because there was physical traffic of people and goods to the residence, but an uncharacteristic lack of electronic communication for the neighborhood it was situated in. What kind of house has a bunch of people living there and regular visitors, but not internet or phone service?

Finally, people have different kinds of risk calculus. Many people know that they're subject to such surveillance and the ramifications that follow from it, but choose to be who they are anyway despite the risks, on the theory that they'd rather live on their feet than die on their knees.

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by visarga on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @11:52PM (#15496770)
Good point - we're choosing to let all this happen because we prefer to have access to all the other benefits that come with surveillance.
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by e12e on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @10:21PM (#15496428)
It's not so much the data people offer up about themselves, as it is the data they offer up about everyone around them.
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by mosselman on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:53AM (#15497740)
Exactly. When I received my university degree I told someone not to post the picture she was taking of me with my diploma on Facebook. "Why not?" she asked offendedly. Why on earth that was offensive is beyond me, but apparently the urge to 'share' is very strong with some people.
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by jstanley on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @06:26PM (#15495497)
If you're not offering up that data, you obviously have something to hide, so that's surely sufficient grounds for a warrant to tap your communications. :)
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by KGIII on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @08:20PM (#15496045)
I once had a pair of police officers try to tell me that my refusal to let them search the vehicle was grounds for probable cause and would enable them to legally search my vehicle.

I laughed and pointed out that I'm not a teen and am quite familiar with my rights. They were visibly disappointed and told me that I was kicked out of Kansas and that I'd be arrested if I ever went back to Kansas. I giggled again but left and they followed me to the interstate slipway.

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by alsetmusic on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @01:18AM (#15497051)
Sheriffs tried the same with me, also in Kansas. Threatened to impound my vehicle to search it, threatened me with arrest, ultimately let me go about my business because I had not violated the law or given a viable appearance of doing so. It was a very clear bully technique that fell apart when I calmly asserted my rights.

This certainly isn’t a localized tactic. I recall discussion of videographers printing statutes and employing them when threatened about recording police activity in public spaces. The frightening aspect (to me) is that some law enforcement officers genuinely appear to believe that they have authority that they don’t have.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2017/04/gresham...

https://www.aclu.org/news/aclu-portland-police-reach-settlem...

https://www.google.com/search?q=settlement+recording+police

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by KGIII on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @01:31AM (#15497081)
The funny part was it was during one of my extended wanderlust adventures and I'd just finished spending a couple of weeks volunteering in Greenville, KS.

They'd just been almost totally destroyed by a tornado and I happened to be just a little ways away. So, lacking anything better to do, I bought some work clothes and went to help move rubble.

I was leaving the State and decided I'd nap for a few hours. I didn't feel like getting a hotel so I slept in the car. It turns out, I was sleeping in a factory parking lot and the people who came in to open it called the police - or so the cops said. It probably didn't help that I was in manual labor clothing, I'm not white, and I was in a new BMW. I probably looked like a drug dealer. That's still not an excuse.

Not to worry, I didn't let it reflect on the nice people of Kansas. But, after I'd spent a couple of weeks just giving my time to those in need, their cops harassed me and told me that I was banned from their State. I haven't been back but that's just coincidental.

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by Sevrene on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @07:15PM (#15495746)
You're being playful about this, but I'm legitimately worried about a future where job candidates are rejected purely because they didn't offer their social media identities or passwords.

I know this does happen sometimes now. What happens when saying "I don't have a facebook account" becomes a significant enough indicator that your're hiding your past?

I've heard stories of people at airport customs attempting to enter a country and having to try explain to the customs officers their lack of web presence or social media posts that they would otherwise use to corroborate and back up their intent for travel.

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by vkou on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @08:11PM (#15496008)
> You're being playful about this, but I'm legitimately worried about a future where job candidates are rejected purely because they didn't offer their social media identities or passwords.

Demanding a social media identity or password is a great idea if you want to paint a huge target on your back for a discrimination lawsuit.

Said social media account will contain a lot of information about whether or not you are a member of a protected class. Good luck proving that you didn't use it in your hiring decision.

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by vtange on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @08:10PM (#15496004)
Doesn't this just mean people will eventually start building artificial social presences to point to instead of simply lacking any sort of presence?
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by mikro2nd on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @08:28AM (#15498545)
I assume that many already do this. There's certainly a number of business opportunities in this, and it's only a matter of time before it turns into an arms race: people building fake social-media identities, other parties (governments, big internet players) deploy AI to distinguish these from real,... rinse and repeat ad infinitum.

If I still cared enough about writing software I'd probably do a startup around some of this. Instead I'm writing SF about it.

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by mosselman on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:58AM (#15497755)
Do you have any sources that describe the asking for social media access in job applications? As a software engineer I am very lucky with the amount of jobs that is available to me, so if I were asked this I would walk out of the interview immediately. My only fear is for all those people who don't have a choice because they are part of a pool of hundreds of applications (psychology graduates for example, at least here in the Netherlands). Some employers just want to squeeze every last drop of dignity out of their employees, it is disgusting.
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by Sevrene on Friday October 20, 2017 @07:10AM (#15514844)
I've only read headlines and heard from friends working in larger cities for larger companies experiencing this, so obviously it's not something which is happening all the time everywhere, and based on my quick research it seems like a lot of news came out around 2012 about this issue: https://www.aclu.org/blog/privacy-technology/your-facebook-p...

I would act the in the same manner you would as well, it's not worth working for a company if they don't have some very basic principles and it's a huge red flag. If they don't respect your privacy in the interview, they probably wont respect it in day to day business. But just like you explained we have to be careful because there's a lot of people who don't really have a choice, especially in today's job market here in Australia; a lot of people would have to decide between privacy and their ability to pay the power, rent, food, etc.

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by weavie on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @06:48AM (#15498091)
This reminds me of Ben Eltons book "Blind Faith". The protagonist is confronted because he is not streaming his every moment of sexual intimacy onto the community website. Clearly he must be hiding something.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2164457.Blind_Faith

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by QAPereo on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @06:31PM (#15495526)
It’s true, I’m almost certainly a drug dealer/pedophile/terrorist, as are all who encrypt so much as a single byte!
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by alchemism on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @06:59PM (#15495670)
What’s more remarkable to me is how people don’t see how easy it is to set up a clean surface identity and discrete secondary identities, and hide in plain sight.
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by pdkl95 on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @09:22PM (#15496244)
Dan Geer, CISO at In-Q-Tel, on[1] why this is patently incorrect:

> Your digital exhaust is unique hence it identifies. Pooling everyone's digital exhaust also characterizes how you differ from normal. Privacy used to be proportional to that which it is impossible to observe or that which can be observed but not identified. No more -- what is today observable and identifiable kills both privacy as impossible-to-observe and privacy as impossible-to-identify, so what might be an alternative? [...] Privacy will be [...] the effective capacity to misrepresent yourself.

> Misrepresentation is using disinformation to frustrate data fusion on the part of whomever it is that is watching you. Some of it can be low-tech, such as misrepresentation by paying your therapist in cash under an assumed name. Misrepresentation means arming yourself not at Walmart but in living rooms. Misrepresentation means swapping affinity cards at random with like-minded folks. Misrepresentation means keeping an inventory of misconfigured webservers to proxy through. Misrepresentation means putting a motor-generator between you and the Smart Grid. Misrepresentation means using Tor for no reason at all. Misrepresentation means hiding in plain sight when there is nowhere else to hide. Misrepresentation means having not one digital identity that you cherish, burnish, and protect, but having as many as you can. Your fused identity is not a question unless you work to make it be. Lest you think that this is a problem statement for the random paranoid individual alone, let me tell you that in the big-I Intelligence trade, crafting good cover is getting harder and harder and for the exact same reasons: misrepresentation is getting harder and harder. If I was running field operations I would not try to fabricate a complete digital identity, I'd "borrow" the identity of someone who had the characteristics that I needed for the case at hand.

OPSEC is hard. You leak incredible amounts of data, and modern analysis techniques reveal a lot more than most people realize.

Re: your secondary identity - how do you plan on obfuscating the changeover events so the usage times (and/or network entry/exit times) of your secondary identity are not the inverse of when you use your primary identity? I recommend ZOZ's talk "Don't fuck it up!"[2] for a better sense of just how hard is to do proper OPSEC in the modern age of surveillance.

[1] http://geer.tinho.net/geer.blackhat.6viii14.txt

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1q4Ir2J8P8

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by mirimir on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @10:55PM (#15496558)
Re secondary personas: They're all online simultaneously, more or less. Or at least, as needed.
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by indubitable on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @02:00AM (#15497194)
This is not as effective as you might think.

We reveal so much more about ourselves than we could ever imagine. If you use, or used Reddit, Snoopsnoo [1] is a site that uses incredibly primitive language parsing to build a profile on users based on what they've voluntarily submitted. And again I have to emphasize that is using very primitive parsing. It's disconcerting how much we reveal when an algorithm is able to rapidly and effectively piece it together.

Now when enter the government that data can be cross matched against other meta-data to nail down your identity to a very small segment, if not outright match it. And then we get into things like language analysis. I make some token effort to anonymity, but my wife has mentioned she often knows its me posting before seeing the username. And I can do the same for other people I know well. No idea what we're picking up on, but it's a task that machine learning would be phenomenally well suited to do - and do better than we do. And then there are things like more explicit dialect issues. This [2] is a quiz based on American dialects. Again it is phenomenal how much your vocabulary, which undoubtedly you view as 'proper', actually reveals your location. Our very language is not only a finger print but also a geo-tracker.

[1] - https://www.snoopsnoo.com/ [2] - http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/12/20/sunday-review/...

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by Jill_the_Pill on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @08:36AM (#15498603)
That snoopsnoo is fascinating. I don't use reddit, so I couldn't look up myself, but viewing the random profiles was so interesting. You could get a real sense of the people -- a college student with an eating disorder who likes a lot of makeup products, an athletic married woman who works lifting heavy things in a warehouse and makes quilts, a sweet loner guy with a deep attachment to France. It would be a treasure trove for a fiction writer in need of characters.
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by keont on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @02:38AM (#15497332)
That link is frightening. Even though I think about this often, watching it in action is scary. Is there any similar tool for twitter?
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by CM30 on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @06:39PM (#15503895)
Took the survey despite being British, found it had me down as being most similar to New Yorkers.

As someone who doesn't know much about American dialogue, do people over there really use similar wording? Or is the quiz just coming up with random answers because it has no clue what to suggest?

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by bobbinsbob on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:42AM (#15497714)
I'm British and took that survey for shits and giggles, I like a survey.

Anyway I'm not that impressed it had me down as either coming from Providence (because I pronounce mary, marry and merry different), or Santa Rosa or San Jose (because I'd never heard of a drive through liquor store which actually seems a mental idea, from a UK perspective). I know it's not supposed to work on me but there's a massive distance between the first and last two places based solely on one data point.

Makes me wonder how this would fare in a smaller country like the England or Scotland, etc.

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by Sevrene on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @07:10PM (#15495723)
Depends on whom you're trying to hide from, no?

Friends and family might have a hard time tracking your discrete secondary identities, but your ISP or facebook might see it very transparently.

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by nine_k on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @09:46PM (#15496323)
A VM with a separate OS, talking to the world through a VPN would probably hide you from Facebook, Google, etc, in the sense that it would be hard for them to correlate the two identities.

It of course won't work well against police, who can look up the VPN provider, ask who's paying for it, and it's mostly enough to find you.

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by dogruck on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @10:10PM (#15496388)
They will fingerprint your online presence timing, writing style, forums, audience, etc.
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by nine_k on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @10:29PM (#15496448)
Writing style: this is something you can work on.

Forums: often the need for a separate identity arises from the need to join a particular forum frowned upon by your peers or superiors. Same for audience. That is, if you want a different persona and not a sock puppet to support your "main" persona.

Timing: this is also solvable if you want to.

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by dogruck on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:33AM (#15497687)
At some point, following that logic, your multiple online personalities are truly distinct.

For example, "okay, so you have one account exclusively post hard core right-wing arguments in the early morning, and then your second account posts left-wing arguments in the mid-afternoon."

At that point, what's the point? :-)

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by nine_k on Thursday October 19, 2017 @08:35AM (#15507325)
For many people, the point is posting family photos and cat pics under their real name, for childhood friends and relatives, discussing technical details of some computer game in a slang-rich game forum, and maybe discussing hardcore [insert your favorite bogeyman here] on some forum of like-minded people.

All these three personalities need not be connected in any way, nor need they contradict each other in what they say. They are just for different and unrelated facets of one's life.

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by mirimir on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @10:52PM (#15496550)
You never use multiple personas on a given forum. And you never have multiple public personas using the same language. Routine stuff, such as account management, is OK. Just use the provider's native language.
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by QAPereo on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @07:18PM (#15495760)
...and police, intelligence agencies etc... will just flag that and your countermeasures will become a target.
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by e12e on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @10:23PM (#15496433)
Right. You just need an actor to stand in pictures for consistant facial recognition. Occasionally send overlapping data (typing a message at one place, while writing a status in another) - all in consistent and different styles.

Possible? Maybe. Easy? No.

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by mirimir on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @10:45PM (#15496519)
Why do you need to have a face? You certainly don't use smartphones (or any device with a camera or microphone) with your alternate personas. I occasionally want a photo, but I just find something fun online.

And about style. Mirimir only writes in English. I draw on my experience working with Americans, including many from the South. My meatspace identity never uses English online.

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by Chaebixi on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @11:23AM (#15499867)
I just tagged myself in a bunch of stock photos (with the same few models) to foil the algorithms. Haven't tested the effects since I've long disabled facial-recognition tagging in my profile, though.

I suppose someday they might implement features to try to detect and filter out that kind of thing, but then it will time to abandon the platform totally.

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by e12e on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @01:28PM (#15501052)
There's no need for a data hoarder to rely on platform specific facial recognition - they'll presumably ingest all photos and tag/group them themselves. This of course includes images where you've been photographed in a group/public place. I imagine it's pretty trivial to "walk" from a single known-good photo (eg: booking / surveillance photo taken in connection to a "suspicious" public gathering, atm cctv, or where a person is figuring in the same photo as a known "person of interest") - to ~99.9% of all photos in the dataset...
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by TazeTSchnitzel on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @08:24PM (#15496061)
How the hell do you intend to hide your secondary identities from the NSA and GCHQ? Even Tor is probably compromised.

(Also, creating secondary identities is easy on paper, but IME segregating myself like that and presenting a fake persona takes a psychological toll. Perhaps others are more adept at it.)

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by mirimir on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @10:49PM (#15496535)
I use nested VPN chains, minimum three deep. Plus Tor for anything serious. Maybe a VPN or two through that even. Latency starts to suck, but that's a good thing, really.

Me, I enjoy having multiple personas :) I also enjoy writing about this stuff: https://www.ivpn.net/privacy-guides/online-privacy-through-o...

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by lucaspiller on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @12:17AM (#15496858)
I’ve read your article and it makes sense, but I’m wondering if what you are doing with multiple personas is really any better.

Mirimir is a rather unique name, Google turns up a lot of results which seem to be you, so it’s not hard to see what mirimir is interested in. I’d assume ad networks also have a pretty good profile on mirimir too.

I’m sure there’s more to you than just mirimir, but it’s probably a big part of who you are so what does this really gain? Your real name isn’t revealed, but that’s just another persona. Potential employers won’t find you are interested in opsec through Google, but I’d assume you work in that field anyway. I’d guess having the choice of what to reveal is an advantage, but it’s very easy then to reveal too much so that personas could be put together (e.g. Steve who is the friend of another persona on Facebook, comments on mirimirs article).

Maybe people aren’t going to come across your non-work interests in (e.g.) steampunk or painting dragon pictures, but so what? For most people that is part of who they are, and they don’t care to hide it. Maybe if you have something to hide this is a good idea, but I’d say most people don’t (given how many post private details of their life online).

Personally I use my real name online. I’ve considered switching to pseudonyms to make it harder for casual people to stalk me, but at the end of the day I’ve already revealed so much that it’s not going to help much, and there isn’t anything I feel the need to hide.

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by mirimir on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @05:10PM (#15503143)
I ended up writing a long reply to mercer, so let's incorporate that by reference.

Yes, Mirimir is rather unique. There's that South American woman, and a travel agency in Iran. But still, yes. I picked it because "мир и мир". And name recognition is intentional.

Indeed, Mirimir is a big part of my online presence. I've worked hard on that persona, for some years. And it occasionally gets me into interesting stuff, even some consulting work.

My meatspace identity is distinguished from Mirimir in three important ways. First, I rarely use English. Second, I don't work on OPSEC, or display any interest in anything related to that. Third, I don't have much of a public online presence. All of my professional work is private, as required by clients. And my social life stays just about totally in meatspace.

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by Mtinie on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @11:50PM (#15496765)
Isn’t the most important rule of opsec, “don’t post comments about your opsec, even if you totally believe you are ‘safe’”?
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by mirimir on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:48PM (#15502903)
That's true. But Mirimir is a special case for me, because his role is sharing about OPSEC. And for what it's worth, Mirimir plays things quite safely. An adversary would need to work out Tor connections through other VPN chains to find anything I really care about. And even then, I'm totally white-hat, so hey.
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by mercer on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @03:20AM (#15497475)
Doesn't using VPN's and Tor in itself put you on the map of anyone looking for 'deviant' behavior?
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by mirimir on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:44PM (#15502842)
Regarding VPNs, that depends where you are. In many countries, VPN usage is over 20%. So it's not such a huge flag. And I do torrent lots of HD video. So my ISP just sees one VPN connection, with torrent-like throughput patterns.

The rest of my online activity goes through nested VPN chains, routed through the main VPN. So it's only the final VPNs in those chains that see anything except throughput patterns.

I routinely have several workstation VMs running, each connecting through its own VPN chain. So, while I'm drafting posts for HN or whatever, I'm typically doing stuff in other VMs. It's pretty much like most people do with apps in multiple windows, or SSH logins, or whatever.

And Tor. I've never connected directly to Tor. I only connect through nested VPN chains, at least three deep. So yes, I consider Tor use to be a serious risk.

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by bradknowles on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @11:12PM (#15496622)
Easy for you, maybe.

In this regard, you might well be one of the very few 0.000000001% for whom that statement might be true.

Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by Zigurd on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @07:11PM (#15495728)
You have put your finger on it. Lack of imagination is why intelligence agencies did not see Russia running influence campaigns on the same social media platforms security agencies use to target incompetent would-be terrorists for dumb stings. Hiding in plain sight is easy for a motivated and diligent adversary.
Re:UK spies using social media data for mass surveillance by KGIII on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @08:17PM (#15496028)
You appear to be assuming they didn't see it coming or know it was happening.