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Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by cupscale on Monday October 16, 2017 @08:59AM (#15482847)
Yeah, wow.

I mean, Rick's a dick, no doubt. But much like Frankenstein's monster, it's incredibly easy to see who had a hand in transforming Rick into what he became. It's hard to read the original article and not see several large "where the hell was management" red flags:

> Any time there was a particularly challenging problem, Rick would handle it.

That's a management failure, and a particularly egregious one that I see new or overly passive managers make. How do you expect one person not to have all of your domain knowledge if they're solving all of the challenging problems?

Fixing this doesn't even involve being super confrontational:

"I'll fix <database issue 123>." "Hey, Rick, you're already working on XYZ and I want Summer to get some experience working with our database system, so I'd like for her to do it."

> First, he created a cult of dependence.

Because management idly sat by and let him do that. People want to feel irreplaceable and like they're exceptional. One way to do that is to create this cult of dependence. Management's job is to step in and re-assure Rick that he's a valued member of the team while also directly confronting this cult of dependence.

We do this all the time at my job, and we don't even do it using complete thoughts. We just say "bus factor" and everyone understands why one person can't be responsible all the time for something (or in this case, everything).

> Team members didn’t want to speak up and offer their own ideas because he always berated them for it.

Holy shit, you didn't torch his ass for berating people in meetings? Are there even managers at this company?

This, to me, is the worst failure. Either management is ignorant of the berating (bad) or they silently tolerated it (even worse).

I really hope the managers at that company are taking a long hard look in the mirror and doing a post-mortem on what went wrong with Rick. I suspect they're not, and attributing it to one bad employee, but I can hope.

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by falcolas on Monday October 16, 2017 @10:33AM (#15483422)
> I mean, Rick's a dick, no doubt.

Who, when being worked 12x7, and when given the pressure of being a blocker of everybody else, isn't going to respond poorly? I've seen some of the nicest and even tempered people get short with others when the pressure cooker is really turned up. Rick sounds like he was a good guy to begin with - someone who regularly helped his coworkers, someone his coworkers trusted - until he was overloaded with work.

Fight or flight. When exposed to extreme stressers, people tend to take one of those two paths. Rick took the first. Someone else would have broken down balling, or spiraled into deep depression, or isolated themselves. Don't blame them for being human - blame the company for creating such a terrible environment.

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by cupscale on Monday October 16, 2017 @10:41AM (#15483492)
None of that changes the fact that Rick became an awful co-worker and needed to be removed, whether temporarily or more permanently. Sorry, berating your co-workers repeatedly is a terminable offense in many places.

To go back to my analogy: Frankenstein’s monster still killed a bunch of people at the end of the day, even if it was Frankenstein’s fault that the monster existed at all.

We can blame Frankenstein while still agreeing that his monster should’ve faced consequences for its actions.

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by dx034 on Monday October 16, 2017 @11:23AM (#15483829)
Giving someone more tasks than anyone could handle and then firing that person because they don't achieve it is only management's failure. He didn't need to be "removed", he only needed to be managed properly.
Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by cupscale on Monday October 16, 2017 @11:26AM (#15483855)
Did you read the original article? That wasn’t the crux of why they fired him.
Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by volkk on Monday October 16, 2017 @11:50AM (#15484076)
You're missing the point. The way it all happened was essentially "yeah so we beat the guy with a baseball bat and he had the nerve to swing back at us while we did so"
Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by cupscale on Monday October 16, 2017 @12:05PM (#15484223)
Eh, no it’s not like that at all.

Again this is more like a dog that’s been abused over the years and then mauls a kid.

No ones surprised that the dog is aggressive, and the owners are obviously guilty of abusing an animal - a horrible thing for the owners to have done.

That doesn’t change that the dog’s aggressive now, though, and should be put down.

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by user5994461 on Monday October 16, 2017 @01:20PM (#15484933)
Correction: A dog that's been abused for years by a kid and then mauls the kid while he is himself beating the dog
Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by philipov on Monday October 16, 2017 @01:28PM (#15485015)
And then the kid goes on to write an essay about how good he was for finally putting down the dirty beast.
Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by Mithaldu on Monday October 16, 2017 @12:28PM (#15484411)
The sheer depth of badness this comparison reaches is extremely impressive.

Developers are human. They don't need to be put down.

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by cupscale on Monday October 16, 2017 @12:32PM (#15484455)
No, but sometimes they need to be fired because the work situation is unrecoverable. Regardless of who’s fault it is.

“Put down” here is an analogy for being fired. I don’t actually think Rick should be put down. I’d hoped that was obvious.

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by Mithaldu on Monday October 16, 2017 @03:49PM (#15486118)
I know you did mean firing, but even that wasn't necessary. In germany we actually force companies to at least try and work things out. In order to fire someone you need 3 documented instances of misbehavior followed up improvement attampts, or an actual breach of law.

This gives everyone time to sit down, gain distance, sleep over it and calm down and try again.

Plus, if the feeling of not getting along remains after that, after some calming down it's often easier to work out a mutually acceptable separation. In a similar situation over here, Rick would've gotten a fairer treatment even on separation, other than "fuck you, bye".

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by jenscow on Monday October 16, 2017 @04:27PM (#15486388)
I thought that was also the case in the UK, but it turns out you need to have been employed for 2 years for that rule to apply.
Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by b_t_s on Monday October 16, 2017 @01:30PM (#15485031)
"fired" is a very negative word, but the point is there needs to be a break between company and employee. As someone who was fired for cause in a situation like this, it's the best thing that ever happened to me. The ship was on fire and sinking fast, and I was totally burned out, bailing as fast as I could. Requested my vacation time once we shipped(nearly on schedule) & got fired instead. Felt awful at the time and I was totally bitter, but looking back it was a godsend. 5 weeks later I had a new job, a vacation, and a huge raise. Now I can't imagine why I spent so long there doing miserable work with old dead end tech, crazy overtime, and all for a pittance. Yea it would have been nice to leave on my terms but the important thing was leaving, regardless of fault or method
Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by jenscow on Monday October 16, 2017 @04:25PM (#15486379)
Same story here.

Although, I was halfway through my journey home when I felt a huge weight had been taken off my back.

Sometimes getting fired is good.

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by bllguo on Monday October 16, 2017 @12:43PM (#15484587)
I don't see how anyone who understands what an analogy is would come to the conclusion that the GP is proposing that developers are killed. What's shocking is how ridiculous your comment is.
Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by Mithaldu on Monday October 16, 2017 @03:49PM (#15486124)
I know he didn't mean killing. I elaborated in a comment above.
Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by oceanswave on Monday October 16, 2017 @09:56AM (#15483199)
Is he, really? Seems like the most dedicated employee mentioned in the article. Could his devotion be tempered by management and molded into a better hammer for the company? Sure seems like it. Seems like Rick was well respected to be placed so much responsibility - the real dicks here are the ones who led to his decline without intervention.
Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by cupscale on Monday October 16, 2017 @10:05AM (#15483259)
Er, yeah, he is. You can be devoted, respected, and admired but still be an asshole. They’re not mutually exclusive traits.

See also: Steve Jobs, famously.

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by pault on Monday October 16, 2017 @09:06AM (#15482883)
They responded to these points in a comment on the original article, which acknowledged management's responsibility for creating the problem, and they say they fired his manager first.
Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by cupscale on Monday October 16, 2017 @09:09AM (#15482894)
I'll admit that I'm particularly touchy about bad people managers, but it really does seem like they just washed their hands of the problem without trying to really discern:

* Why this became such a big problem (and wasn't resolved earlier)

* How to prevent it from happening in the future

Because if one team can effectively silo themselves so well that problems like Rick are allowed to fester for multiple years, I don't have high hopes for the future for them.

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by coldtea on Monday October 16, 2017 @09:45AM (#15483114)
>I mean, Rick's a dick, no doubt.

"No doubt" a real person is a dick, because of a single-sourced account from those who fired him, which even at that, leaves the question of their own failures wide open?

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by bartread on Monday October 16, 2017 @09:53AM (#15483179)
Also, even assuming Rick is a dick, I think that might have been more sympathetically (and probably more accurately) rendered as "Rick became a dick".

As the article points out, working endless overtime to the detriment of the rest of your life - not to mention isolating yourself from those around you - will play havoc with your mental health, sense of perspective, and general wellbeing.

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by cupscale on Monday October 16, 2017 @09:52AM (#15483175)
Ehhh sorry, saying things like "I'm Albert Einstein and you're all just fucking monkeys scratching in the dirt" doesn't strike me as the speech of someone who's particularly nice.

Most people (at least in my experience, you know, the one who's making the subjective judgement about him being a dick) can be angry without saying something pretentiously mean like that.

It's ok for the conclusion here to be, "Rick's an asshole who should've been fired but management fucked up pretty badly." Situations don't have to be binary with only one party at fault.

EDIT: Let's also not forget the accounts of Rick supposedly berating people in meetings. If multiple people think you're being mean to them, you're probably being mean.

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by bartread on Monday October 16, 2017 @09:56AM (#15483201)
I don't know: in my experience pretty much everyone has a breaking point somewhere and once they reach it things can get pretty random. I've seen people I thought had it all together just completely lose the plot and disintegrate too many times to believe it's all bubbling away there, just below the surface, in all of us.
Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by cupscale on Monday October 16, 2017 @10:03AM (#15483246)
Your reasons for being an asshole don’t change the end result though. It just changes the context around it.

Similarly I can understand how an aggressive dog came to be (poor training, etc.). That won’t change my opinion that the dog should be put down when it mauls a kid, you know?

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by falcolas on Monday October 16, 2017 @10:26AM (#15483383)
Perhaps it's the dog's owners who should be put down. After all, they'll just get another dog and make it as aggressive as the previous one...

Blaming an innocent for how they were cultivated is silly. Especially when those innocents can be rehabilitated.

We're getting a little off topic, but this company is just setting up another Rick to take the blame when the train goes off the tracks again.

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by cupscale on Monday October 16, 2017 @10:34AM (#15483437)
If you read my other comments, you’ll see that I agree with you completely.

That doesn’t mean the dog shouldn’t be put down. It just means there are also other parties at fault.

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by falcolas on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @11:43AM (#15491874)
It absolutely means the dog shouldn't be put down. Dogs, and more importantly people, can be rehabilitated.

All it takes is one person in power to care enough to see to that rehabilitation to transform an aggressive "dick" back into a productive team member.

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by coldtea on Monday October 16, 2017 @11:21AM (#15483804)
>Your reasons for being an asshole don’t change the end result though. It just changes the context around it.

No, it very much does.

We are not cavemen to assign labels to people based only on external outcomes. Ever courts take emotional state and other circumstances into account.

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by cupscale on Monday October 16, 2017 @11:25AM (#15483843)
Sorry, it really really doesn’t.

The court might take your emotional state into account when you murder someone, but if they’ve got you dead-to-rights you’re still going to prison.

Does Rick deserve to get blacklisted? No. Would I have been incredibly upset if they named the individual? Yes.

Did Rick deserve to get fired even though they basically set him up to get fired? Yep, he still does.

Did Rick react inappropriately to a horrible situation? Yep, he did.

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by cannonedhamster on Monday October 16, 2017 @03:57PM (#15486186)
Actually no, just because you kill someone doesn't mean you're going to jail. If someone is attacking you and you lash out in self-defense, you're very likely to not go to jail as everyone is expected to be able to defend themselves. It sounds very much like this was a defense mechanism to overwork. The fact that they didn't give him time off before approaching him was kind of crappy in the first place. It should never have come to what it came to.
Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by forgottenpass on Monday October 16, 2017 @10:58AM (#15483636)
Most people (at least in my experience, you know, the one who's making the subjective judgement about him being a dick) can be angry without saying something pretentiously mean like that.

Doesn't matter.

Someone backed into a corner is just act like someone backed into a corner. The die was already cast. Everything that happens after is blame-shifting.

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by cupscale on Monday October 16, 2017 @11:22AM (#15483821)
Uh, what? It absolutely does matter. There are appropriate reactions when you’re “backed into a corner”, and there are inappropriate reactions.

I absolutely get to say what the arbitrary line is in this case because I’m the one making the subjective judgment that Rick was most likely being an asshole.

If Rick had snapped and shot up the place would you think he should face no consequences?

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by forgottenpass on Monday October 16, 2017 @11:38AM (#15483944)
If Rick had snapped and shot up the place would you think he should face no consequences?

I'm sorry I insufficiently hedged my tolerance of someone showing anger when pressed and didn't think to explicitly cover the case of escalation to violence.

I absolutely get to say what the arbitrary line is in this case because I’m the one making the subjective judgment

And I absolutely get to tell you that in my assessment you're wrong. That how opinions work.

Re:You fired your top talent. I hope you’re happy by cupscale on Monday October 16, 2017 @11:44AM (#15484009)
> I’m sorry

Good, I’m glad we agree that you insufficiently argued that people backed into a corner aren’t responsible for their actions.