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Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by jsight on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @02:10PM (#15443982)
I agree with some of your critique, but I also think you are giving Apple a little too much credit. Yes you can compile and install your own software, but AFAIK, you have to pay a yearly fee for the privilege of doing so. This isn't nearly as open as Android phones, where it is a simple matter of checking a box.

I definitely agree with you that Google isn't giving away the code for philanthropic reasons, though. I can't really feel bad for them for having to incentivize handset makers to do things that make Google even more money.

Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by giobox on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @02:24PM (#15444110)
> Yes you can compile and install your own software, but AFAIK, you have to pay a yearly fee for the privilege of doing so.

While this was true in the past, this hasn't been the case for a while if you want to build and run on your own personal device. There are some minor caveats, but if you want to compile and run an app locally on your device you don't need to pay Apple the $99 any more.

The idea that the version of Android that most people actually use is "open" is arguably a myth - when you look at what the "closed" parts of Android now include, it's a large amount of the feature set that actually matters to most ordinary consumers, and is often the "stick" Google uses to get OEM partners to follow the overarching vision for the platform.

Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by tsycho on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @03:29PM (#15444650)
> There are some minor caveats

One of the "minor caveats" is that the app only runs on your own device for max 1 week, after which it will have to be reinstalled via Xcode.

Which basically makes this useless even if all you wanted to do was run your own code on your own device. I have tried this for small apps I made for myself, but after re-installing 2-3 times, the annoyance was too high for me to continue.

In contrast, and while I am way more experienced and comfortable with the Apple SDKs/dev environment, deploying a small app that I built for my wife was ridiculously easy, and continues to run fine without me touching it for more than a year now.

Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by valine on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @03:16PM (#15444549)
This is only true if you're fine with reinstalling the side-loaded app every week. This is a pretty major caveat imo. If you want the app to stay on your device past a week you need to buy the paid Apple Developer subscription.
Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by lvillani on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @02:35AM (#15447701)
I keep reading this but my experience is different: I have built and installed two applications on my iPhone more than a month ago and they still run just fine. I didn't have to re-install them every week.

My paid developer subscription expired two years ago. I suffer from all restrictions of the free tier (can't publish to App Store, can't use StoreKit, SiriKit, etc) except for the need to re-install the app every week.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by mercer on Saturday October 14, 2017 @05:15AM (#15471422)
Could other people confirm/deny the claims in this comment thread?
Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by holtalanm on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @02:45PM (#15444287)
>Yes you can compile and install your own software, but AFAIK, you have to pay a yearly fee for the privilege of doing so

Yes. And you have to own one of their overpriced computers too.

Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by saagarjha on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @02:51PM (#15444328)
Not necessarily. There are third-party tools (such as Cydia Impactor) that are cross-platform.
Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by AlphaSite on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @03:04PM (#15444437)
You don’t need to pay a fee but you do need a Mac.
Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by msie on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @06:12PM (#15445757)
Really tired of this argument. Do you really expect to do software development with little to no investment in software and hardware? Even if you are just developing for Android you need to buy a PC and an Android device. If you want to test Android software on a PC be prepared to spend money to get a machine powerful enough to run Android emulators at a tolerable speed.
Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by mixedCase on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @09:50PM (#15446751)
This a bit of a ridiculous response. If I'm developing for Android I can use a PC of my choice using Windows, Mac or Linux. Android emulators run acceptably fast with KVM even on low end PCs.

I have no interest in Mac hardware, it is stupidly overpriced for what it offers and what I need it to; and what I need it for it's bad at: Running Linux well.

Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by holtalanm on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @03:58PM (#15452909)
But guess what? I can still actually _run_ that android development environment on any damn machine I want to.

Why would you be 'really tired of this argument'? It is a verifiable _fact_ that Apple requires you to own one of _their_ PCs in order to develop IOS apps. I can't use a Lenovo. I can't use a Dell. I can't use an iBuyPower gaming laptop that blows the specs of their shiny Macbook Pro out of the water. You see the problem? You have no actual _choice_ with your development machine when developing IOS apps.

There is no 'argument'. That is just how it is. And it keeps vast quantities of people that _might_ develop quality IOS apps out of their ecosystem.

Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by simonh on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @05:26PM (#15445446)
Oh for goodness sake, go and get yourself a GNU Stallmanphone or whatever along with the other five or six owners and leave the rest of the world alone. What the heck did Apple ever do to you?
Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by wutbrodo on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @06:17PM (#15445783)
Hilariously enough, your comment only makes sense if you assume that everyone else is as pathetically and irrationally emotionally invested in their consumer choices as you clearly are. It's entirely possible to complain about one of the downsides of apple's approach without thinking being an extremist on the position of consumer control of their computing devices.

For example, I use Ubuntu instead of eg Windows; someone as simple-minded as you could make the exact same complaint: "why don't you go compile Linux from scratch and leave the normal people alone".

But this would be missing the part of the picture where eg I chose Ubuntu over Debian because the small extra hassle of Debian's extra commitment to free software means not being able to do things out of the box like use certain codecs.

People are capable of choosing different points on the spectrum of convenience vs controlled solutions, and those of us who aren't incredibly immature are able to discuss their pros and cons without turning everything into a holy war.

> What the heck did Apple ever do to you?

Jeez, this part is just embarrassing.

Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @08:43PM (#15446464)
> your comment only makes sense if you assume that everyone else is as pathetically and irrationally emotionally invested in their consumer choices as you clearly are...this part is just embarrassing

Your comment is stronger without this.

Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by wutbrodo on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @01:08PM (#15451300)
Look, I agree with you to some degree, and I'm sorry that you got downvoted for simply calling for being nicer.

But if my comment was simply "here's why you're technically not correct, easy mistake to make", it wouldn't quite be communicating the same thing. Namely, what a low opinion I have of turning every discussion into a fight, and how damaging I think it is to discourse of any kind (and without even including the actual rebuttal! The comment was 100% insults). I appreciate the feedback, but I'm not sure I agree that my comment would be stronger. If anything, it would be legitimizing ss part of the conversation a comment with no substance except broad, irrelevant insults.

Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by simonh on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @02:21AM (#15447663)
Hmm, I just find it frustrating when posts imply that one company or other, Apple, Google, etc is somehow cheating just simply by being better at something than everyone else. And yes I know there are some sharp and anticompetitive practices out there, but just being good isn’t anticompetitive.

If Apple computers were overpriced, they wouldn’t sell. Why is it strange that you’d need and Apple device running Apple software to develop software for other Apple devices? Isn’t that sort of expected? Should Apple be required by law or even moral imperative to port all their development tools, libraries and services to other operating systems? Why? Yet it’s somehow a terrible injustice that you can’t write iOS apps on Windows it Linux it Solaris or VMS or whatever.

It’s just funny how someone can look at the millions of happy Apple users and successful app developers and lose their shit over it. Move on with your life. Other people being happy and enjoying and thriving on something shouldn’t take away any of your fun.

Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by futhey on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @01:07AM (#15447434)
Sorry you're getting downvoted to oblivion.
Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by sli on Thursday October 12, 2017 @02:18PM (#15460004)
These types of comments belong on reddit, not HN.
Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by kn0where on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @02:23PM (#15444103)
> AFAIK, you have to pay a yearly fee for the privilege of doing so.

That hasn't been the case for a number of years. As long as you have a Mac, you can download Xcode for free, compile an app, and sync it over to your iOS device.

Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by ekianjo on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @08:55PM (#15446526)
Needing a Mac is an extra expense in itself. I fail to see much difference.
Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by futhey on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @01:05AM (#15447428)
Sure. A company doesn't choose to spend hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars per year to port their development tools to a third-party platform.

I'm sure if they believed they would get more & higher quality developers to build apps by doing so, they already would have.

Makes since, especially since Windows historically hasn't done the same for Visual Studio / C# (I know they're supposedly trying now or planning to but I confess I haven't followed along closely enough to determine if it's cancelled, delayed, or the scope was actually smaller than full dot net + c# support).

Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by ariwilson on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @03:10PM (#15444499)
Super simple to do as an end user, for sure.
Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by bobwaycott on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @03:16PM (#15444541)
Your average end user who requires things to be simple is never going to install their own apps outside the approved, simple channels.
Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by Larrikin on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @03:33PM (#15444689)
There are multiple thriving app stores in the global android market
Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by wil421 on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:37PM (#15445127)
I’ll take one App Store over many anyday if it severely lessons the chance of getting malware.
Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by racer-v on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @05:44PM (#15445571)
Would you also take one news source over many if it lessens the chance of seeing "fake news"?
Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by dymk on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @08:35PM (#15446416)
Would you take one false equivalency over another if it lessens the chance of an "ironic reply"?
Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by racer-v on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @01:41AM (#15447539)
Choosing your app store and choosing your news source aren't equivalent, but they're both desirable (for related reasons).
Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @08:41PM (#15446452)
> Would you also take one news source over many if it lessens the chance of seeing "fake news"?

Yes. This is why, every morning, I first get my news from trusted sources.

Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by racer-v on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @01:26AM (#15447484)
Who picks those sources - you or your phone's operating system vendor?
Re:Google's $19B Black Box Is Worrying Investors by bobwaycott on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @09:55PM (#15446771)
You are not replying to my meaning or intention. The context of the discussion was clear. You’ve taken it in a wholly different direction.