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Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by tolmasky on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @01:21PM (#15443573)
When the iPhone X notch was first announced I thought it would be a fantastic security UI opportunity: What if the top of the screen was only writable by the system? It would normally be black or show the time, but whenever there is a password dialog, it turns green with a security lock. This is something I've wanted on all computers for a while: fundamentally, any computer where you can get access to the whole screen's buffer means you can fake a logged out screen asking you to log in, or any other number of phishing attacks. The only way to prevent this is to have a separate secure screen buffer for a special part of the screen that the user can use to visually verify the security of an operation. The notch provided an awesome opportunity for the because: 1) it was NEW screen real estate, it wouldn't feel like you were acquiescing existing screen space for this security need and 2) it looks absolutely horrible when integrated into apps anyways, so why not use it minimally for good reason instead?
Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by zoul on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @01:51PM (#15443830)
Especially when there’s already a UI precedent: the coloured status bar indicating a call, personal hotspot connection, etc. Great idea!
Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by Osmium on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @02:07PM (#15443966)
Fantastic idea, upvote for visibility. Reminds me of the old ctrl+alt+delete but much more friendly for the user.
Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by tetrep on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @02:12PM (#15443998)
Ditto for the touch bar on Macbooks (although that doesn't fix the issues for OS X in general).
Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by zacmps on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @03:31PM (#15444673)
This already exists on Windows (via require Ctrl-Alt-Del) and to a lesser degree on Android (by always being able to show the action bar in fullscreen).
Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by andrewla on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @03:38PM (#15444735)
Not really. From the GP

> This is something I've wanted on all computers for a while: fundamentally, any computer where you can get access to the whole screen's buffer means you can fake a logged out screen asking you to log in, or any other number of phishing attacks.

In Windows, I can render the whole screen, so I can put up a fake login dialog. To some extent, Windows users are used to requiring a ctrl-alt-delete before being prompted for a password, but there's no reason why I can't put up a static image of what the screen looks like during a password request. Having a portion of the screen which an application is forbidden from accessing would solve this, but the requirement for full-screen applications that want to write every user-visible pixel means that there's fundamentally no way to prevent this attack.

Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by jychang on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @03:51PM (#15444816)
No, he's correct.

Ctrl-Alt-Delete on windows is a privileged hotkey that goes directly to the kernel. A phishing program can't intercept it once it has been pressed. If you know that Ctrl-Alt-Delete has been pressed, you are already privileged as the kernel and would be able to compromise a hypothetical protected screen buffer anyways.

https://i.imgur.com/BE0xN3i.png

The Windows login screen here doesn't allow you to type in the password until you press the magical keys that only the kernel can access. This significantly increases security, since any phishing program that puts up a fake static image doesn't know when to present the login dialog.

Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by MichaelGG on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:11PM (#15444967)
Programs can detect Ctrl alt del somehow, because RDP clients do it. But they can't intercept it.

But a phishing program can just show the enter password screen, without the ctrl alt del prompt. Few users understand the security need to press ctrl alt del. And in newer Windows, it doesn't seem to prompt unless you enable it via GP.

Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by howellnick on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @07:21PM (#15446095)
Doesn’t RDP use Ctrl+Alt+End for bringing up the password screen?
Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by nikbackm on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @04:07AM (#15448074)
Yes.
Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by andrewla on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:47PM (#15445194)
There are two vectors here; the one that the post was talking about is the fact that as long as an application controls the screen, they can show whatever they want -- for example, an app (or a full-screen web site) could render a pixel-perfect version of this:

https://i.stack.imgur.com/LHDfV.png

And the user would say "oh, another stupid UAC prompt", enter their password, and that would be that -- UAC doesn't stop and say "press ctrl-alt-delete to enter your password". If it did, then that would significantly decrease the risk here.

Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by dogma1138 on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @09:00AM (#15449370)
They can detect it, VMWARE for example detects it as well and tells you that you should use ctrl+alt+insert.

Applications cannot fake ctrl+alt+del.

That said you can integrate with the windows login and extend it to show w/e you want I've written a client for a smart card for GINA a long long time ago.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms7...

Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by Too on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @10:27AM (#15450004)
Vmware requires root to be installed. At that point you are pwned already.

I also think it requires signed drivers. Those have to be verified by Microsoft.

Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by Too on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @10:31AM (#15450040)
In windows 10 the ctrl-alt-del to login is gone as default. Now you just have to press any key. Presumably due to touch screen support and usability.
Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by amelius on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @03:48PM (#15444802)
Great idea. Except, I'm not sure if the average user would benefit from this. Would they be aware of this feature?

(Of course, no question that for us hackers this would be a very useful improvement!)

Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by kelnos on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:06PM (#15444927)
Not initially, but just as users can be 'trained' to automatically enter in their password when they see a popup, they can eventually be trained to expect a new UI element to indicate it's secure.

Seems like in browsers, the lock icon and (for EV certs) company name in the location bar has been a plus, so there's certainly precedent for this sort of thing.

Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by ProfessorLayton on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @03:18PM (#15444560)
This would also make sense on the MBP's touchbar
Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by eric_h on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @05:27PM (#15445450)
Yes indeed. I'm always a little anxious when an installer (or something) prompts me for an administrator password, and some secure channel indicating that it's really the OS that's asking for it would help to assuage my fears.
Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by ercu on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @08:59PM (#15446540)
What does prevent the developer from making this new screen buffer blank/black and making the top of app's screen look exactly like that shape and style? The user won't see the difference except small top margin.
Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by altern8tif on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @09:37PM (#15446692)
Am I missing something here? Isn't the notch already taken up by FaceID sensors/front-facing camera? It isn't really "extra screen real estate".

I do like the idea of a separate indicator for system-wide security events though. Perhaps an LED indicator although that doesn't seem very Apple-like.

Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by jondwillis on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @10:08PM (#15446814)
I believe OP is referring to the screen real estate next to the notch on both sides.
Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by skav on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @01:47PM (#15451614)
I worked in dumb phone standards 12 years ago (GlobalPlatform) and it was actually in the standards to tell the user "you are in the secure zone". Well, OEMS in the western world were not really willing to implement it, funny it comes back now.
Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by tonyztan on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @02:10PM (#15443984)
Great idea. I wish Apple would consider this.
Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by Nition on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @04:26AM (#15448152)
Plus 3) It would make app development easier. No more trying to fit your UI around the notch.
Re:iOS Privacy: Easily get a user's Apple ID password, just ... by stephanerangaya on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @08:01PM (#15446254)
fantastic idea