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Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by nimish on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @05:16AM (#15391163)
Tooling tooling tooling. FPGA hardware is cool but the tooling fucking sucks. Like stepping back into the time where you needed to pay thousands of dollars to get decent compilers and debuggers.

The ability for anyone to develop software for CPUs at zero-cost is an amazing freedom. You literally cannot do that on certain fpgas--not only do they cost thousands, so do the tools to actually create a working design.

Until that changes, FPGAs will always be niche.

Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by nakedrobot2 on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @06:19AM (#15391362)
FPGA's are extremely powerful, but the toolchain is absolute dog shit. Xilinx, shame on you. Intel, will you change anything here?

The compound problem of this in reality is that finding the right people who have the right strain of semi-insanity to do this really well, is very slim. And most of them are tied up with a massive salary from some aerospace company such as Raytheon, GE, Honeywell, or someone like Philips (building medical devices).

Add to that compile times of an hour or a day, and you have a glacial development cycle on your hands.

Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by jalons on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @09:14AM (#15392143)
HFT also still pays top dollar for competent FPGA developers. I'd wager they're willing to pay more than the listed industries too, especially if you factor in profit sharing and bonus structures.
Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by chillingeffect on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @11:19AM (#15392963)
hahaah yes, i just installed a Xilinx tool and they had me watch an "Installer training Video."

The gist of which is you can now actually uncheck products you don't need to install, preventing them from being installed.

Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by nxmehta on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:42AM (#15398504)
FYI, the toolchain is shit because:

1. The optimization problems that EDA tools have to solve are about as hard as it gets - NP-hard and sigma 2p problems at a massive scale. I'd argue that these are among the hardest optimization problems in modern computer science today.

2. The number of people with the CS + EE training to develop this software is decreasing. Not a lot of people are getting PhDs in EDA anymore, because:

3. Regular software houses (Google, Amazon, etc.) have about 2-3x the comp as EDA companies. Trust me I've seen a lot of incredibly smart EDA people jump to Google and more than double their salary overnight.

I doubt Intel is going to shift the balance here. It's not easy to develop a fast and efficient SP&R flow.

Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by gcp on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:20AM (#15400231)
You know, we would all like faster synthesize and P&R cycles, but when people complain about the tooling being shit, that's not what they're complaining about. (Mostly)
Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by simias on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @05:36AM (#15391229)
I dream of a GCC/LLVM for FPGAs. I'm not holding my breath for Intel to help with that though.
Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by aeruder on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @09:32AM (#15392249)
C (or really any traditional programming language) doesn't really map to an FPGA. There are some compilers out there that attempt to convert traditional C code to state machines for FPGAs, but FPGAs are really a completely different paradigm. You're actually describing digital logic, not a sequence of steps.

That being said, there are soft-processors that have been written in VHDL/Verilog and can be incorporated into a FPGA design, and those CPUs do often have GCC support (Microblaze Xilinx, NIOS 2 Altera, plenty of MIPS CPUs out there, etc.).

Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by simias on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @09:57AM (#15392430)
Oh that's not what I was implying, sorry for the confusion. I meant an open source, portable HDL compiler/synthesizer like what GCC/LLVM are for software. As the parent and many others point out in this thread the tooling is a really sore point for FPGA development. It's always big, clunky, often buggy closed source applications (often running on an unhealthy dose of Tcl scripts cobbled together).

And of course if you change supplier you have to relearn everything or pay for an other third-party closed source solution to abstract some of the differences between the environments of Xilinx, Altera/IntelFPGA and friends.

Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by aeruder on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @11:57AM (#15393304)
Understood, and I totally agree that it is an industry ready for some shakeup.

I used to work for a large defense contractor doing FPGA work, and we really went out of our way to try to stick to 100% VHDL to attempt to avoid vendor lock-in. This meant things like writing block ram HDL in a way that it would be inferred by the synthesis tool to use the block ram (and not synthesize out of a bunch of LUTs).

It was a constant struggle to keep things synthesizing correctly. We mostly standardized on using Synopsys Synplify Pro for vendor-neutral synthesis and then using the Altera/Xilinx backend tools for place and route, etc. But even then, we regularly had to whitelist certain good versions of Synopsis' tools.

It was possible to do this with the vendor-specific synthesis tools too, but it was still a massive effort to check that primitives synthesized into the correct elements across different parts/vendors. Ugh, do not miss it.

Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by gcp on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @11:04AM (#15392881)
The sore point of FPGA development is that not only the tooling is beyond terrible, it's also effectively a strong lock in. Changing designs is all but easy, even IF your design is not tied to specific hard fabric on the FPGA.

So you got terrible tooling and then a lock in into that tooling.

Not very appealing. Why the f--- would anyone use FPGA's unless they're the only option?

Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by Symmetry on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @11:45AM (#15393186)
There are some people working on that, for example:

http://www.clash-lang.org/

Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by LoweD on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @02:34PM (#15394816)
Last time I checked out Christiaan Baaji's CLASH, it was a Haskell DSL for generating RTL. That is neat, but it doesn't involve any LLVM-like abstraction of FPGA primitives for synthesis.

That would be more than neat, revolutionary really. But it would require buy-in from the major vendors, in the form of publishing many low-level device details.

Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by Boothroid on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @09:08AM (#15392108)
I have an iCEstick sitting in a drawer, for which some pretty amazing open source tools are available: http://www.clifford.at/icestorm/

I wish I had the time to play with it!

Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by slrz on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @11:41PM (#15398120)
I recently tried to buy an iCEStick and failed horribly. Where did you get yours?
Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by Boothroid on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @04:56AM (#15399114)
Element 14 / Farnell
Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by aj7 on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @10:12AM (#15392517)
The fact that you don't is an indication of its true value.
Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by Cerium on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @10:26AM (#15392605)
Lattice has gotten some great product placement with recent parts. They have one that is cheap and essential to implementing voice command wake (siri, ok Google). Fpga have huge value for the right applications, but are often low value for individual developers since bring up time is so long.
Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by gcp on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @11:02AM (#15392861)
I got a Xilinx Spartan DEV board sitting in a drawer too. The board is great but Xilinx's tooling has negative value for me, so it'll stay there.

Tooling is 100% the thing keeping FPGAs back.

Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by ethbro on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @11:59AM (#15393324)
As far as I can tell, it's an economics problem.

The big consumers of FPGAs don't care if the tooling is terrible, because they're coming from 80s development environments and practices and can afford to dedicate 50-person teams to the job function.

Smaller companies won't touch it because it's terrible, and the vendors won't improve it because there's no demonstrated market for improvements.

Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by gcp on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:28AM (#15400279)
Sounds about right. I guess the market economics don't work out for a simple design (i.e. with not much IP revealed by open sourcing the spec) that can be programmed with OS tools. I mean, there's these ICE chips, which is a huge step, but realistically I'd want something just a tiny bit bigger and with a hardcore (ARM or MIPS) in it.

Or maybe the market economics work out, but are small relatively compared to the big players, so it moves glacially.

Re:Intel Gears Up for FPGA Push by Boothroid on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @10:35AM (#15392672)
Hardly, I just have too much else on. Have you any experience with the project?