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Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by tejohnso on Thursday September 28, 2017 @10:44AM (#15357438)
"If I were to point out random emotional labor duties I carry out—reminding him of his family’s birthdays, carrying in my head the entire school handbook and dietary guidelines for lunches, updating the calendar to include everyone’s schedules, asking his mother to babysit the kids when we go out, keeping track of what food and household items we are running low on, tidying everyone’s strewn about belongings, the unending hell that is laundry—..."

That all sounds like household management with some relationship management thrown in. What does it have to do with labouring over emotions? It sounds like this person needs a partner who shares more household responsibilities and has an organization and cleanliness habit that is more in line with their own.

EDIT: I just did a quick search of this term "emotional labor" and this comes up from wikipedia:

"Emotional labor is the process of managing feelings and expressions to fulfill the emotional requirements of a job. More specifically, workers are expected to regulate their emotions during interactions with customers, co-workers and superiors."

That seems a lot more reasonable definition for emotional labour. Actual emotion management. The author of the featured article seems to want to attach this term to just about every kind of task that occurs in a household.

Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by BarkingChicken on Thursday September 28, 2017 @02:08PM (#15359450)
I think that one of the things I'm continuously disappointed in is that comments like this tend to get more exposure and agreement than the concept that the author is trying to bring to light. I get so excited to see discussion about these concepts, but then the idea gets ignored because the author isn't using exactly the right words. It really makes me feel even more isolated and unheard.

Yes, communication is a very important part of discussing concepts, but its a bit like being interrupted by a grammar nazi while you're trying to indicate that you're drowning.

For what its worth, I agree with you. I don't like the term emotional labor for this type of situation. But that's the term that's commonly applied to it and correcting what its called isn't fixing the issue. And I don't think that boiling it down to "Sorry, you should have thought of this before you married the guy." is helping anyone.

Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by zug_zug on Thursday September 28, 2017 @06:37PM (#15361356)
Well delivery can be just as important as the message. It sounds like she alienated male-audiences by implying it's a problem with a whole gender instead of implying it's a gender-neutral trait.

After all, how does she know who does the cleaning, planning, keeping track of birthdays in my relationship?

And I don't think it's fair to dismiss her gender-targeting delivery as a trivial detail such as grammar, she's clearly a professional writer and it's hard to imagine it's accidental.

I wonder if she's playing on her audience's pent-up emotions and intentionally stirring controversy to get more-internet attention? (not quite trolling, but a gentler form)

Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by ZenoArrow on Friday September 29, 2017 @01:39AM (#15362985)
> "Well delivery can be just as important as the message."

Only if the delivery is offensive, otherwise the message is more important.

To give an example, I'm a native English speaker, and when I speak with some non-native English speakers they can make some quirky decisions on how they deliver their message. However, if I've understood the underlying message, I'll look past it, and address what they meant.

To bring it back to the topic at hand, meta discussions like the one we're having now often start out as a form of deflection. Regardless of the term 'emotional work' (I prefer 'hidden work', you may have a different preference), do you agree that the underlying message of the article is broadly correct? It's not so much about who takes on the 'hidden work', but rather it's about the toll it takes.

Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by Sacho on Friday September 29, 2017 @03:15AM (#15363386)
No, because I don't know what the underlying message is - you didn't spell it out, neither did parent, or anyone in this chain.

If you unentangle the first example the author gives, she wants to give a task to the man, without explaining how to do it, and then complains that they don't do it properly. But it's not even just that, it's her wrapping this task into a "Mother's Day gift", i.e. forcing the man to do emotional labor to figure out what the woman really wants and how exactly to do it. This is a counter-example to her overall argument, both in her literal words(about emotional labor), and (I'm guessing here) in the underlying meaning of "men should do more of the hidden work"(how do you expect them to do the "hidden work" if you never explain to them that you're doing it, you want to share the responsibility, etc?).

If there's a deeper underlying message that I'm missing here, please, I'm interested in knowing about it. But every time I read an article like this, all I can think of is "dysfunctional relationship" and "unreasonable expectations".

Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by ZenoArrow on Friday September 29, 2017 @07:02AM (#15364242)
> "If you unentangle the first example the author gives, she wants to give a task to the man, without explaining how to do it, and then complains that they don't do it properly."

This is where you're wrong. The wife makes it very clear to the husband how she wants the job done. This is clear because the husband reluctantly acquiesces to her request before deciding to go with a different approach. Once you accept that the wife's instructions were clear, the rest of your argument falls down.

Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by alexandercrohde on Friday September 29, 2017 @11:23AM (#15366071)
No, I actually don't get her larger point. She describes frustrations with her husband (which I feel are not generalizable), and I don't even accept her framework necessarily (it generally seeks to use blame to resolve a marital issue which I find counterproductive, a therapist would never use a word like 'fault').
Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by ZenoArrow on Friday September 29, 2017 @02:17PM (#15367676)
Let's imagine a more extreme example to make the point clearer. Imagine you have to become a live-in carer for an elderly relative, and they rely on you to take care of their every need, with very little in the way of time off. Can you see that such a situation, whilst still something that can be carried with dutifully with a minimum of fuss, could still be emotionally draining for someone? If so, what do you think causes the situation to be emotionally draining?
Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by alexandercrohde on Friday September 29, 2017 @03:21PM (#15368306)
So I still don't get her larger point. I think we can all agree emotional draining exists, as you articulated. I also agree it happens in relationships. But then she drags gender into it and loses me entirely.
Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by ZenoArrow on Friday September 29, 2017 @04:41PM (#15368989)
Gender is "dragged" into it because our social norms are keeping unequal balance of relationship responsibilities alive. The article touches on this when the author describes the difference in behaviour between her children. It's possible to see this anecdote as something that reflects on the innate difference in the personalities of her children, but there is something to said beyond that. It's the whole nature vs. nurture debate again. I can see that the experiences in early childhood shaped the person I am today, and I don't think it's any different for the children of today. How a child is praised (or not praised) shapes what they think of as normal. Can you see that it's possible to reinforce a certain view of what's "men's work" and what's "women's work"?
Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by 2muchcoffeeman on Thursday September 28, 2017 @04:48PM (#15360593)
But you literally cannot discuss something if you don't agree on what's being discussed.

People who understand the grandparents definition of emotional labour are going to read the first couple paragraphs of this article, wonder what the author is on about, and quit reading.

Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by forgottenpass on Thursday September 28, 2017 @05:53PM (#15361073)
But that's the term that's commonly applied to it

The terminology shapes the way people think about the topic. And people need to understand the issue to fix it. Otherwise you're just shotgun debugging.

and correcting what its called isn't fixing the issue

No, it doesn't. But presenting the issue poorly isn't helping fix it any faster, either. This entire conversation was largely avoidable had the article communicated better.

Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by Sacho on Friday September 29, 2017 @02:58AM (#15363326)
But you didn't make an effort to reword it with the right words. Only you can see your internal thoughts and monologue, all we have to work with is the words we see.

Judging by your post, we could reword the article down to this: "Men should take up more household chores". Okay, that's uncontroversial. Digging down into the first example of the article:

"What I wanted was for him to ask friends on Facebook for a recommendation, call four or five more services, do the (emotional labor) work I would have done if the job had fallen to me."

Wouldn't it be easier to just tell the guy to do this, rather than veil it in a Mother's Day gift and expect him to "do the right thing"? Is it not the partner's responsibility to communicate clearly what they want, why they want it, etc? Why is the assumption that your partner, your loved one in life, is being malicious, is unwilling to do "the emotional labor", rather than just not knowing how to do it? Would it be fair if I asked my partner to "buy me a new PC for my birthday", and then complained that she didn't do research on the manufacturers, didn't make a custom build out of individual specced components, but rather bought me the first google result?

What I am continuously disappointed about in these discussions is how the authors, almost always female, seem to treat their partners like shit. I would never think to blame my partner for not being as good as something as me; I would look for a way to teach them, I would take this as a bonding experience for our relationship. This is why I will turn the author's claim around - no, you aren't "fed up", you're nagging - when did you make an honest effort to help your partner do the things you want them to do? How is what you're doing productive?!

Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by mhb on Thursday September 28, 2017 @11:19AM (#15357698)
Yes. It's the wrong term. She objects to having to manage some of the household tasks. She doesn't want to manage the housecleaning or manage child care. Fine. Managing is work. No need for the different nomenclature.
Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by analog31 on Thursday September 28, 2017 @01:00PM (#15358793)
Sometimes the hardest thing for a manager is to give up managing something. Being in control is not a pure cost. Managing is work, but it's also prestige, power, and security. It's also easy to delude yourself into believing that you have "higher" standards, when all you have is different wants. And if you're a manager, chances are you're a better debater and negotiator, so your beliefs are sheltered even if you're wrong.

When I was a manager, kicking the micromanagement habit required months of conscious effort. It wasn't easier at first. A problem with most bad habits is that overcoming them involves things getting worse before they get better.

It took a while for people to believe that they could make their own decisions. Most of them had already been doing so, but keeping their managers out of the loop. Giving up control meant that I was actually allowed to know what was going on.

If someone complains to me that people aren't taking initiative, I ask them if the people are really allowed to take initiative.

Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by sgt101 on Thursday September 28, 2017 @04:14PM (#15360343)
Artfully articulated.
Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by aoenstkn4nto on Thursday September 28, 2017 @02:06PM (#15359436)
> ""Emotional labor is the process of managing feelings and expressions to fulfill the emotional requirements of a job."

Isn't that what she's saying? She doesn't want to have to tip-toe around her husband's feelings the way she seems to have to. She spends a lot of emotional labor (or capital, if you prefer) trying not to point out obvious things like, "I shouldn't have to tell you to put away the thing you took out. I shouldn't have to praise you for doing the work you were expected to do. I shouldn't have to just accept that you never reciprocate those emotions when I do the things you can't seem to, or want praise for."

Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by tejohnso on Thursday September 28, 2017 @05:11PM (#15360755)
"I would not have to make the calls, get multiple quotes, research and vet each service, arrange payment and schedule the appointment. The real gift I wanted was to be relieved of the emotional labor"

What she's saying is she wants to do less work, and then she throws the term "emotional labor" in there as though that's a catch-all description for any work that she normally does that she would rather not be doing. But maybe I just don't understand the term.

"Then I tried to gingerly explain the concept of emotional labor: that I was the manager of the household, and that being manager was a lot of thankless work. Delegating work to other people, i.e. telling him to do something he should instinctively know to do, is exhausting. "

Nope, again, she's just saying she's doing a lot of work, specifically here delegation and managerial work. This is the way she is explaining the concept of "emotional labor" but most people just call it work and/or management.

I'm not sure how it helps to call it "emotional labor". It just confuses the issue putting focus on the individual's personal symptoms as the result of a problem rather than the problem itself. The real issue seems to be a work imbalance which leads to frustration. Fix the work imbalance, the frustration goes away.

Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by deagle50 on Saturday September 30, 2017 @10:14PM (#15376027)
The label helps to shame the other party into acquiescence.
Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by mmjaa on Thursday September 28, 2017 @11:06AM (#15357598)
"emotional labor" == minding ones manners, adopting and using customs appropriate for the current scenario, and .. generally .. not being a dick.

I think its harder for people to not be dicks to one another, if they've never learned the value of minding ones manners, and it has to be stated: our modern society doesn't really promote this fact. More like, "get your own way no matter what" these days, it seems ..

Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by ZoFreX on Thursday September 28, 2017 @01:46PM (#15359248)
In the circles I hang in (as in, both people I talk to, and articles I read) the term "emotional labour" is used like it is in this article.

Sometimes terms mean different things in different circles or groups or contexts, it doesn't mean either usage is "wrong" necessarily.

Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by nonbel on Thursday September 28, 2017 @11:01AM (#15357570)
I agree, at least the first two paragraphs did not sound like emotional labor.

Edit:

That is a shame because it does sound like an interesting concept.

Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by izacus on Thursday September 28, 2017 @10:52AM (#15357497)
Are you really nitpicking use of rather accepted term?
Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by RUG3Y on Thursday September 28, 2017 @11:42AM (#15357965)
Term is used incorrectly to lambast half of the human species. It's not nitpicking to expect someone to use words correctly.
Re:How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality by rootlocus on Thursday September 28, 2017 @11:33AM (#15357858)
I don't think it's nitpicking if the entire thesis of the article is based around a concept that has nothing to do with the article.