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Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by thriftwy on Thursday September 21, 2017 @10:04AM (#15303494)
The system where the poor have to rent apartments in big cities is obviously flawed. Soon, average rent approaches median wage. Then subsidies come into play. Now, rent can grow even more. Now, rents is not something people are ready to pay but something rent-seekers extract directly from state coffers. It's an arbitrary amount. We end up playing money to the already rich.

(We should probably pay subsidies to old/disabled people on condition that they move away from centers of economic activity and into more rural, economically depressed areas)

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by cabalamat on Thursday September 21, 2017 @10:10AM (#15303553)
> We should probably pay subsidies to old/disabled people on condition that they move away from centers of economic activity and into more rural, economically depressed areas

Old and disabled people -- particularly if poor -- may find it easier to get about in cities, as places they want to travel to will be nearer and there will be more public transport.

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by thriftwy on Thursday September 21, 2017 @10:24AM (#15303692)
It's occassionally cheaper to provide poor with a huge Uber voucher than with rent subsidy. Two rides a day, 20 days a month is still just $800 (perhaps cheaper in rural area, bought in bulk).

And by doing that you're making economy healthier. By propping up big cities you're contributing to feet of clay situation.

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by nf05papsjfVbc on Thursday September 21, 2017 @10:53AM (#15304018)
So, it's good for the government to give money to a service operating at artificially lowered prices and whose business model has been to flout laws as far as they can get away with it?
Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by literallycancer on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:21AM (#15304328)
If the company name triggers you, just pretend it's a bus or a train voucher.
Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by thriftwy on Thursday September 21, 2017 @10:54AM (#15304030)
You can have competition between providers for those vouchers.
Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by mynewtb on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:22AM (#15304346)
That would make it even worse, a race to the bottom.
Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by thriftwy on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:31AM (#15304446)
WHAT? Since when free money from government in already economically depressed area will "make it even worse"?

Worse compared to that? Channeling more money to landlords in SF and NY?

It's basically people on early disability choosing between whisky on payday and making extra buck on hauling other people like them around.

Face it, many less-fortunate areas are on the bottom already even in developed nations.

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by mcguire on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:27AM (#15304412)
"It's occassionally cheaper to provide poor with a huge Uber voucher than with rent subsidy."

Failing that, let them eat cake.

Uber, taxi service, and most forms of public transportation do not exist at all in rural areas.

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by thriftwy on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:29AM (#15304425)
Why won't Uber exist in rural areas? And by "rural" I actually mean most of places which aren't a booming megapolis, including cities of ~100,000.
Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by mcguire on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:51AM (#15304676)
You have a strange definition of rural.

Anyway, out here in the middle of nowhere, Uber, taxi and (high frequency) bus service are not economically viable. Low population means low numbers of fares means low suppliers means long delays for service means lower numbers of fares. All of which is made worse by distances.

Medium and large cities do have taxi service and public transport, but those are lower priority since everyone has a car.

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by thriftwy on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:54AM (#15304714)
I don't see how Uber would not be unviable anywhere. As a driver, even if you have one rider per month, why not make an extra $10?

WRT "made worse by distances" Bay Area is actually pretty sprawling itself. I don't think any rural community will have its points of interests further apart than Bay Area has.

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by planteen on Thursday September 21, 2017 @03:44PM (#15306720)
Uber doesn't offer service in much of the rural US now. There's a ride service specifically for rural areas called Liberty: http://libertymobilitynow.com/

But even these are for micropolitan areas with populations on the order of 40,000. There is still no service for more remote areas.

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by javra on Thursday September 21, 2017 @12:52PM (#15305317)
Let's say you're on Hartz IV. The $10 have to be accounted for at the social security system, and if you earn to many of them $10's, you don't get to keep them.
Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by legulere on Thursday September 21, 2017 @10:31AM (#15303776)
Yes just kick out the poor from the cities that are the center of their life: where they lived for their whole life, where friends and family live, where their job is, where they are active in clubs, where there are jobs and cultural offers.
Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by thriftwy on Thursday September 21, 2017 @10:34AM (#15303810)
You can live in the city that is the center of your life as long as you want, provided you can pay rent.

Once you can't pay your rent and apply for subsidies, naturally we should see where the compromise is.

Otherwise you will not help yourself landing in the situation where X can fit in a city comfortably, but 10*X people consider the particular city the center of their life. What do we do?

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by asymmetric on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:35AM (#15304486)
People without much money shouldn't be forced to move out of neighbourhoods they call home just because they don't have money.

Who said money should buy you the right to a life with strong social bonds?

Some things, including the ones mentioned above, should not be on the market.

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by golergka on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:40AM (#15304547)
Why the hell not? This idea seems so alien to me I can't even begin to understand how someone can come up with "social bonds" as a reason to pay less for something.
Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by thriftwy on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:48AM (#15304635)
They should have bought some property instead of renting it out then.

Augmented social bounds with economic ones.

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by legulere on Thursday September 21, 2017 @12:11PM (#15304910)
People not being able to pay rent? They should simply buy property instead!

Germany is traditionally a country with low personal wealth, low homeownership rates. On the other hand renting is relatively cheap. Most people simply cannot afford to buy property. Already in Nürnberg, which is the second biggest metropolitan area in Bavaria after Munich where the housing prices are around half of that of Munich people with normal wages struggle to be able to acquire a home.

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by thriftwy on Thursday September 21, 2017 @12:22PM (#15305017)
> Germany is traditionally a country with low personal wealth, low homeownership rates

So basically you are working like an ant, but with grasshopper's security[0]? Maybe it's time to change that?

> On the other hand renting is relatively cheap.

Not anymore now that winter is here!

0. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Fables_(La_Fontaine,_tr._Wrig...

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by gumby on Thursday September 21, 2017 @02:22PM (#15306117)
Buying has its own problems, ranging from access to capital to reducing economic flexibility. In this thread the topic is not having to move but mor generally the problem is an inability to move.

On the the US’s historical economic strengths was the ease with which people could move in order to find work. One major influence in the US is economic slowdown of the past decade or so comes from peoples inability to move to find work

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by thriftwy on Friday September 22, 2017 @10:41AM (#15312588)
So you want to keep your own economic flexibility (rent without buying, leave at will), but you want city/state to forfeit their economic flexibility (subsidy your rent, don't kick you out)?

Can you see a problem here?

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by gumby on Friday September 22, 2017 @11:08AM (#15312844)
That’s a fase dichotomy. Home ownership is not automatic good — goo in some cases, not in others. Some hysteresis can be injeted into the propert markets.

I also see the value in pop 13 in california (for residences, not commercial) at the same time I see its problems.

Few solutions are effective (nor problems soluble) when cast in black and white.

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by moultano on Thursday September 21, 2017 @10:40AM (#15303864)
Build more housing. (Or rather, permit it to be built.)
Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by thriftwy on Thursday September 21, 2017 @10:47AM (#15303942)
It's outside of my control, as a tax payer, to force some city to build up.

It's well inside of my control to demand that my taxes are not wasted on subsidies going directly to rent-seeking landlords in already economically overheated areas.

I would prefer they go to underdeveloped areas and give more economic effect. This means that people asking for subsidies should be ready to shift away from the core.

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by moultano on Thursday September 21, 2017 @06:23PM (#15307861)
You do if you live there. Vote pro housing candidates for city and regional government.
Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by bartedinburgh on Friday September 22, 2017 @11:05AM (#15312811)
I've left the center of my live in pursuit of a better job, and even though I earn above average wage, taxes & rent consume a huge chunk of it, because many people here live in subsidized housing.

Is that more fair?

Now I can either be poor in my home town (no good jobs) or poor in a big city, where my wage is largely consumed by high taxes and rent. Why do other people deserve a subsidized house but I don't? I want more disposable income too.

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by alexasmyths on Thursday September 21, 2017 @06:52PM (#15308015)
The thing is - 'village life' in Europe can be amazing and very fulfilling, often a higher standard of living than those in the cities.

800 Euros is quite a lot for rent.

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by golergka on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:39AM (#15304533)
Why use force to kick them out? If they're concerned with their well-being, they'll move on their own. If not, why should we be?
Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by namlem on Saturday September 23, 2017 @12:58PM (#15320587)
Or do neither and deregulated housing policy like in Japan. That way developers will build higher density housing to meet demand. Yes, people love to talk shit about the tiny apartments in Tokyo, but that's how you keep prices down.
Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by seletz on Thursday September 21, 2017 @10:48AM (#15303951)
I think the real problem is that in in germany -- especially there -- wages almost stagnated over the last 10 years.

Germanys wages are that low that other EU countries (France, Italy for example) find it hard to compete in terms of labour cost.

I think that's also the main cause of Germany being "Exportweltmeister" every year.

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by rbehrends on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:00AM (#15304083)
Not really [1, 2]. Labor costs aren't the highest in Europe, but they're fairly high. This is a persistent myth. Wages stagnated after reunification (near economic collapse of a large part of the country and 10%+ unemployment will do that for you), but other than the financial crisis and the mini recession of 2012-2013, real wages have been growing for the past decade [3].

[1] http://www.dw.com/en/germanys-labor-costs-rising-faster-than...

[2] https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/06/17/german-labor-co...

[3] https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFakten/GesamtwirtschaftUmwe...

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by lampenrad on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:54AM (#15304710)
Here are the labor costs compared to other nations from '00 to '11: https://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imageca...

They might've grown above EU average since then, but they certainly got some catching up to do.

Real wages have increased since '07, yes, but that was also the lowest year in decades. The fact is, that it's barely above where it was 25 years ago: http://www.bpb.de/cache/images/7/61767-1x2-article620.gif?FF...

And I don't see, how the reunification of Germany would've caused real wages in '07 to be lower than in '93. I'm no economist, but Hartz 4 and the Agenda 2010 in general seem like a more plausible cause to me.

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by rbehrends on Thursday September 21, 2017 @12:22PM (#15305022)
> And I don't see, how the reunification of Germany would've caused real wages in '07 to be lower than in '93.

Several reasons. The botched currency union led to inflated wages (in no relation to productivity) in East Germany in conjunction with the Treuhand mismanagement to Germany being the sick man of Europe, with unemployment rising to 10%+. To this day, employees in East Germany earn about a quarter less than in West Germany. Production was outsourced to Eastern Europe, and Eastern European workers started to compete with German workers. You may remember that Volkswagen went from a 5-day to a 4-day week in late 1993 with a proportionate reduction in wages to save jobs. Wages are not immune to the laws of supply and demand, and consequently they stagnated. Reunification was an economic disaster and it took Germany a long time to recover from that.

> I'm no economist, but Hartz 4 and the Agenda 2010 in general seem like a more plausible cause to me.

Except that they've pretty much constantly grown since then, except for recessions. That's an indisputable hard fact. Real wages stagnated between 1990 and 2007 and have been rising since then. Whether there's a causal connection between Hartz IV and the rise in wages is something that nobody knows, but given that Hartz IV was introduced in 2005, it pretty much could not have had an effect before then, barring a time machine.

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by thomasfl on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:21AM (#15304329)
The world needs more non profit organisations that seek to build affordable housing for it's members. Besides the organisations should also build environments that provides social and economic possibilities - aka new cities instead of just urban sprawl or unfriendly suburban housing.
Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by gambiting on Thursday September 21, 2017 @10:28AM (#15303745)
This is my main argument against Universal Basic Income - if UBI is X/month, then monthly rent for anything will grow to at least X/month because why wouldn't it? If you know that 100% of your renters have a guaranteed income of X/month, then why charge any less?
Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by thriftwy on Thursday September 21, 2017 @10:36AM (#15303826)
> if UBI is X/month, then monthly rent for anything will grow to at least X/month because why wouldn't it?

Because there's plenty of real estate offered cheap once you don't have to hang out near a big economic center?

Real estate is commodity in many places, why won't it be? People will just move there.

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by gambiting on Thursday September 21, 2017 @10:45AM (#15303924)
If that was true, we wouldn't have poor jobless people living in the city centres - why be poor and jobless in a city centre, if if you can be jobless and slightly less poor outside of the city, surely there is no functional difference? But humans are not automatons, they don't follow perfect logic.
Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by thriftwy on Thursday September 21, 2017 @10:50AM (#15303975)
Well, on UBI, stupid people may end up propping rents in expensive locations.

Less stupid people would move to a location where UBI will allow comfortable living for them.

People may end up not so stupid. Imagine you live in SF, you've got $500 UBI while your rent grew $300. This leaves you with extra $200 of leg room, yay for UBI!

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by aianus on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:19AM (#15304302)
Because subsidized housing is located in, and funded by, the city (at least where I live). There is no option to move somewhere cheaper and keep the subsidies.
Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by thriftwy on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:22AM (#15304349)
I'm not sure that is the case in Germany.
Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by rjsw on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:22AM (#15304342)
We often require jobless people to be able to prove that they are looking for work, harder to do this if they are living somewhere cheap but far away from potential employers.

For me, UBI would need to have an expectation that people may have to move around a bit as it is introduced, they would have a choice on where to go though.

Re:Germany’s hidden hunger by oneweekwonder on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:14AM (#15304245)
> why be poor and jobless in a city centre

Condensed space with a lot of working class people... Best place to beg.