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Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by jryan49 on Monday September 18, 2017 @06:52PM (#15280393)
What kind of changes? I have a hard time searching google about gut health without feeling like none of it's scientific, and all a scam for advertising or selling products.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by lrem on Monday September 18, 2017 @07:13PM (#15280516)
I've recently watched a ton of Ted talks on the subject (thank you, autoplay), so you can call me a proper internet know-it-all. The consensus seems to be: nobody knows, but the SAD certainly is not the right answer. As diverse as you can get and as little processed as you stand seem to be popular ideas too. Dropping sugar and milk seem commonly recommended, but they can pry my ice-cream from my cold, dead fingers.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by colordrops on Monday September 18, 2017 @07:29PM (#15280599)
Small amounts of animal protein and lots of raw greens and vegetables, tubers and roots. Everything else is extra. Be careful though about making any specific recommendations here or else someone with a different idea will attack you for not backing it up with scientific data. Because you shouldn't try to figure out what to eat until you get a PhD.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by maxerickson on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:49PM (#15281208)
There's a difference between trying to figure out what to eat and advertising that you have figured out what to eat.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by colordrops on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:28PM (#15281330)
Your implication is that nothing should ever be suggested without scientific references and footnotes. That is just absurd in the extreme. Do you do search the journals before teaching your kid to wipe his ass? Do you really think that diet is any different from any other thing that we do several times a day for our entire lives?
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by maxerickson on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:55PM (#15281439)
The number of people making fantastical claims about toilet paper is a lot smaller than the number of people making fantastical claims about the important of specific diet components or habits.

Like take your comment that I replied to. It is incredibly specific advice. As if there is 1 brand of toilet paper that is absolutely the right one.

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by colordrops on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:40PM (#15281622)
I think it would be more like, use soft toilet paper and wet it to avoid overwiping. It's a good guideline but not a physical law etched in stone.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by qarioz on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @01:00AM (#15281917)
Or follow the more enlightened civilization and use bidet.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by Tharkun on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @02:43AM (#15282305)
Or -- to get this back on topic -- add more fibre to your diet and your days of messy wiping will be over [1].

[1] This is not medical advice. Terms and conditions may apply. Consult a physician and toilet paper specialist before stopping to wipe.

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by shanev on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:34PM (#15281154)
What’s the value in raw vs cooked vegetables? I thought cooking makes their nutrients more bio-available. Do you really eat tubers raw? I can't imagine eating a potato raw. Our ancestors even always cooked them.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by BurningFrog on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:08PM (#15281268)
Yeah, this books makes the case against raw diets very well:

https://www.amazon.com/Catching-Fire-Cooking-Made-Human/dp/0...

That's the thing with diets. There is a real well reasoned argument for and against most anything...

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by fpoling on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @07:57AM (#15283799)
Does the book really present evidence that a raw diet is worse for human health than cooked food? From the table of content and introduction it seems to present a strong case that cooking affected human evolution. But that does not mean that it made humans healthier. For example, cooking could have made long-term health worse, but other benefits coming from increased food availability and shortening time to get it outweighed that.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by BurningFrog on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @11:42AM (#15285626)
It's not the main point of the book, but it does describe how it's very hard to live a healthy life on only raw food. I remember it pointing out that about half of women on such diets stop menstruating.

This is something our bodies do out of pretty desperate lack of nutrients, and it's of course devastating from an evolutionary standpoint.

The thesis of the book is that we've cooked food for so long that our digestive system is adapted to it. It even speculates that the shrunken digestive system made our bigger brains possible. All that is far from uncontroversial, but it's a well written and argued text.

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by shanev on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:32PM (#15281348)
You're the 4th or 5th person to recommend this book to me. Guess I have to read it now :)
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by BurningFrog on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @12:13AM (#15281726)
Actually, I'm one of your previous in person recommenders (didn't notice the user name), so only 3rd or 4th :)

Still a really fascinating and well written book.

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by petre on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @01:09AM (#15281951)
Cooking was probably man's greatest discovery, well before the wheel. Why negate all of that and join a culinary religion?

Remember the E. Coli epidemic in Hamburg a few years ago? It started from raw bean sprouts.

https://www.foodsafety.gov/keep/types/fruits/sprouts.html

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by kwhitefoot on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:21AM (#15282697)
>Remember the E. Coli epidemic in Hamburg a few years ago? It started from raw bean sprouts.

That's a hygiene problem not a culinary one.

I doubt that stir frying bean sprouts would be enough to sterilise them and surely no one cooks them any longer than that.

Used to eat a lot, mostly sprouted at home and we never took any special precautions, just normal domestic hygiene. Ate a lot of them raw too.

Of course I haven't tested either the internal temperature of a bean sprout during stir frying nor have I tried infecting one with E. Coli to see if the E. Coli is neutralised by stir frying. Perhaps someone with the necessary gear and expertise could try it.

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by micheljones on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:06AM (#15282639)
Yup, cooking and increased animal protein/fat intake (aka eating more meat) are responsible for 2 most important evolutionary jumps in our history by increasing both availability of calories+protein and (in case of fire) reducing parasite load.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by Mz on Monday September 18, 2017 @10:30PM (#15281337)
My opinion:

A little cooking is good for making things more digestible. Overcooking depletes nutrients.

I tend to like things like stir fry or similar high heat, short cook time approaches.

(No, I will not try to back this up with citations.)

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by blacksmith_tb on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:36PM (#15288070)
Raw-diet adherents might not think in these terms, but I would suggest that many of the health benefits stem from the much poorer absorption of macronutrients from raw food. Which allows you to eat quite a lot (leaving you sated), but doesn't actually provide a lot of calories (though potentially lots of other nutrients, like folate, vitamins, minerals etc., though some are easier to extract from cooked food also) Or you could eat less cooked food...
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by colordrops on Monday September 18, 2017 @11:46PM (#15281639)
Sorry, I threw in tubers after the fact, and didn't mean to imply that they should be eaten raw.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by Tharkun on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @02:45AM (#15282309)
I used to date a girl who would snack on raw potatoes the way regular folks snack on apples.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by mhkool on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @07:53AM (#15283767)
juicing makes nutrients in vegetables more bio-available. Cooking destroys vitamins.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by lrem on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:57AM (#15282593)
Oh yes, that's exactly the kind of advice I had in mind, but didn't feel comfortable giving. Maybe because I have a PhD?
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by micheljones on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:03AM (#15282624)
Or alternatively, go on keto diet - 60-70% fat (mostly animal and milk fat), 20-30% protein, 5-10% carbs. Make sure to increase your electrolyte and fiber intake to account for lower intake of those through the diet.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by philipps on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:59AM (#15282884)
A few colleagues at work recently started their keto diets (primarily in order to lose weight). I am interested in gut health and looked at some of the background materials I could find. It seems reasonable that the body can switch its energy source to fat, but the (long term) effects on overall health seem to be poorly studied/ understood.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by fpoling on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @08:24AM (#15283981)
My father worked in Mongolia and observed how local people in remote rural areas ate. Calories came only from meat of horses, sheep, camels and some small game plus fermented camel milk. There were no vegetables or any other plants besides few herbs that they used for tea. This is not surprising as it is very difficult to grow there anything but local grass, so one can survive only from animals that can eat that.

My father does not remember that locals got some particular health problems from that. Old people looked healthy and worked pretty much until the dearth. What is especially interesting that it was also true for descendants of Russian emigrants there from 100 years ago, but they did grow some vegetables and cereals.

Of cause, that does not prove that meat is healthy. But it does show that in a particular climate eating only meat is not harmful when the meat is from animals that was treated by locals with extreme respect and that were fed on grass that was either fresh or covered with snow at winter.

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by micheljones on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @08:49AM (#15284142)
Meat is not bad on its own. All claims and 'research' about meat being bad are by people who have an ulterior motive. Online it's mostly sensitive vegans who think that the legitimacy of their goal of 'not hurting animals' gives them right to steal, cheat and kill their way to it.

All bad things related to meat consumption are result of intensive and unhealthy farming practices, and combining increased fat intake with increased carb intake (especially fructose). Correlation, not causation.

That being said, there are two issues with meat: in the West, we pretty much only consider muscle as meat, and dislike the internal organs, when it should be the other way around. Even obligate carnivores prefer internal organs because they are richer with fat, and often leave a lot of muscle meat on carcasses.

Second, and related, issue is that muscle meat based diet is a high-protein diet, not high-fat diet, so it's more akin to Atkins than to keto diet. High protein diet comes with its own set of issues: it places significantly higher load on liver, which causes increase in liver size; obligate carnivores have extremely large livers compared to their body size (just google for an image of shark's liver compared to its body, it's almost 1/3 of the volume). This also applies to humans, for example Inuit have enlarged livers as well.

This is the result of increased need for protein-processing capacity. Liver can only process so much protein into fuel per unit of its volume per unit of time. And to use Inuit as example again, because of this, they keep snacking every couple of hours, more often when exerting themselves physically.

A related concept is 'rabbit starvation': eating lean meat (rabbit in winter) is not enough to keep a human being alive - while you're in theory ingesting enough calories to survive, your liver's capacity to process pure protein into fuel is less than your body's need for fuel.

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by fpoling on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @11:29AM (#15285488)
[1] gives direct evidence that meat from grass-feed cows comes with higher load of endotoxins than wild game. It will be interesting to know if this is a consequence of modern breading/farming or something related to cow domestication.

[1] - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20377925

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by micheljones on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @11:53AM (#15285725)
Thank you for that link.

The summary doesn't mention 'grass-fed', only 'wagyu'; wagyu is intensively grain-fed in the last year of their life or so.

To quote from a quickly-googled article:

"What many people overlook is that farmers make Wagyu as fatty as possible by feeding their cows huge amounts of grain for the last 300-500 days of their lives. Some farmers even add wine and beer to further increase fat content. The result is that a wagyu cow’s muscle tissue is thoroughly marbled with fat. Unfortunately, it’s the kind of fat that is not good for you. The mold toxins in all that grain are bad for the cow and end up in its fat, and then in you, which would mean wagyu beef has a disproportionately high toxin load."

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by fpoling on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @12:45PM (#15286263)
My bad, I was under impression that wagyu cows were supposed to be grass-feed most of the time.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by micheljones on Thursday September 21, 2017 @06:18AM (#15301998)
No bad, it's a pleasure to discuss these things with someone who is willing to research and to admit their mistakes.

Much better than the usual crowd I get in these kind of discussions, the 'sensitive vegan' type who pushes false statistics to try to hide being emotionally invested behind the authority of science (two of their favorite falsehoods are to push all people who consume meat into the same group for comparison vs vegans - bad science, because majority of omnivores have very bad diets incomparable to my efforts at keeping on keto, and arguing that 'cows emit methane, so we need to eat less meat', never 'cows emit methane, so let's eat other meat more'). And then when I display patience and deconstruct their arguments, the mask of reason falls off and they just start calling me Hitler, murderer etc. lol.

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by micheljones on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @06:53AM (#15283408)
I vouch for it based on my personal experience - I suffered from a serious and untreatable autoimmune disorder (of thyroid, not directly of gut), and the only 'treatment' proposed by doctors was to cut out my thyroid and make me dependant on taking thyroid hormones orally for the rest of my life.

I refused, did some research on my own, and went on keto. My thyroid bloodwork is back to normal and I have no symptoms. And I feel much 'healthier' and more 'energetic' than before all this as well.

I am not proposing keto diet as a magical cure-for-all, but as a possible venue that should be tried before being forced to undergo irreversible surgical procedures for example.

P.S. body does not 'switch' the energy source to fat, it increases the production of ketones as result of interrupted Krebs cycle ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid_cycle ) because oxaloacetate gets rerouted for use in gluconeogenesis (creating glucose for brain's needs), because there's not enough glucose in diet. This interruption causes the buildup of the main source for Kreb's cycle, acetyl-COA, which is then converted to acetoacetate (a ketone), which is then also partially converted to acetone and beta-hydroxybutyrate (also ketones). Of these, body uses acetoacetate and beta-hydroxybutyrate as fuel. Body is always able to use them, it's just that there's not enough of them to use if you're not on carb-restricted diet, so body defaults to using glucose as fuel.

Like you say, long-term effects of keto are poorly studied, mostly because of two reasons: early keto hype as an effective seizure treatment died out once we got good enough chemical seizure treatments, and there was a lot of money poured into blaming fat intake for negative health effects of increased carb intake from the 50ies (starting with Ancel Keys), and picking up significantly in 70ies.

There are animal studies that demonstrate increased longevity of animals on keto diet, similar to calorie restriction and strict veganism. While the calorie restriction and strict veganism most likely work through lowered intake of methionine (an essential aminoacid which functions as START coding block for protein synthesis, meaning that with lowered methionine intake your body creates protein at lowered rate and renews itself more slowly), keto achieves that through effectively tricking the body to go into 'starvation mode' i.e. the mode of using own fat reserves while the actual fat source is the diet.

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by ams6110 on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:41PM (#15280928)
SAD? Standard American Diet?
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by kristallizer1 on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:45PM (#15280958)
Yes.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by astura on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @12:03PM (#15285826)
What exactly does "processed" mean though? Cooking is a form of processing so do I have to go raw? Pressing oils out of nuts is processing so do I give up oils and only eat nuts? I thought fermented foods showed some potential health benefits but I'd argue that fermentation falls under "highly processed."

"Processed" is a vague word that means very little.

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by undersuit on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @06:24PM (#15289337)
Does it come in plastic wrapping and has a self life greater than 6 months? Probably processed.

Sure that includes cheese, preserved meats, honey, grains, and many liquids, but you can also find those held in paper, wax, wood, and glass containers. Hamburger Helper is processed and it always comes in a plastic bag.

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by pitcharoad on Thursday September 21, 2017 @04:45PM (#15307185)
read "processed" to mean "all values extracted beforehand"
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by jpster on Monday September 18, 2017 @07:05PM (#15280474)
Kimchi, sauerkraut and yogurt, among other things. https://www.rd.com/health/wellness/probiotic-foods-gut-bacte...
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by Nomentatus on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @12:48AM (#15281879)
Careful - most of what you buy as "Kimchi", even from Korea, and most "sauerkraut"; is probiotic in no way whatsoever. That's because it isn't fermented as it should be, they've just poured in vinegar to make pickled vegetable matter. That won't help you at all.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by stenl on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @01:12AM (#15281961)
On the other hand, making kinchi yourself is super-easy. it takes literally five minutes to set up and a few days to ferment, then just gets better over time (weeks/months).
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by jpster on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @04:30AM (#15291719)
Thanks for the heads-up. Would avoiding kimchi products that have vinegar listed as an ingredient be a good strategy? Or is some amount of vinegar also used in authentic kimchi?
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by Nomentatus on Sunday September 24, 2017 @07:22PM (#15327046)
Good comment - the practical way is to avoid anything with vinegar added (no need, the bacteria make plenty.)
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by zaptheimpaler on Monday September 18, 2017 @07:14PM (#15280519)
There have been a few studies on probiotics. Besides that I think not much is known scientifically.

But I think the best way is to realize you are free to experiment with your diet - with careful tracking of your diet, you may be able to find certain foods that work great or certain foods that make you feel worse etc. You can run an "n of 1" experiment on yourself and see what works. No need to wait for a study/evidence because its not coming anytime soon.

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by travmatt on Monday September 18, 2017 @09:01PM (#15281027)
In addition to what everyone else is recommending: fermented vegetables like pickles or sauerkraut, especially organic and homemade such that you can see the culture in the jar as well.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by rednerrus on Monday September 18, 2017 @06:59PM (#15280437)
Get more fiber in your diet. Eat more vegetables. Eat less sugar and processed foods.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by toomuchtodo on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:17PM (#15280824)
> What kind of changes? I have a hard time searching google about gut health without feeling like none of it's scientific, and all a scam for advertising or selling products.

High fiber, high fat, moderate protein, as few carbs as possible. Water whenever you're thirsty.

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by vanderZwan on Monday September 18, 2017 @08:05PM (#15280768)
Well, in terms of general dietary knowledge, NutritionFacts.org[0] is great. When I first visited it I thought it looked a bit sketchy, but turns out to be a treasure trove.

Yes, Dr. Michael Greger also sells books and DVDs through the site, but you need neither buy anything nor register to get access to all the material on the site.

Most of the videos are basically him summarizing a large number of papers on a specific subject. Each video is accompanied by a transcript, and sources.

[0] https://nutritionfacts.org/

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by vanderZwan on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @02:59AM (#15282363)
I would like to know why someone would downvote me for linking what is basically a vlog/podcast where each episode cites at least a dozen scientific papers.

If the guy turns out to be a quack after all, I'd like to know why, not just be passive-aggressively told I'm wrong.

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by grzm on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:17AM (#15282427)
People often have strong opinions regarding diet and nutrition claims. For the shade of gray of your comment, I can't imagine you received more than a couple of downvotes. While I sympathize with your desire for responses, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

From the Wikipedia article on Greger, it looks like he may be cherry-picking his evidence or overstating his claims in some cases. Speculation, but that might be a reason people would disagree that nutritionfacts.org is a good source:

> Retired physician Harriet A. Hall, who is known for applying critical thinking to health claims, has written that, while it is well accepted that it is more healthy to eat a plant-based diet than a western pattern diet, Greger often overstates the known benefits of such a diet as well as the harm caused by eating animal products (for example, in a talk he claimed that a single meal rich in animal products can "cripple" one's arteries), and he sometimes does not discuss evidence that contradicts his strong claims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Greger

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by vanderZwan on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:30AM (#15282487)
> People often have strong opinions regarding diet and nutrition claims.

Well, I suppose. Ariely has a good video on that people getting irrational as the topic moves closer to the body[0].

It's still pretty ridiculous given that just about everyone else is replying with their unsourced opinions.

And that's basically one guy whose critique is "he's a bit too enthusiastic about the plant-based diet." Given how attached people are to meat, that's hardly a strong counter-argument.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwOmNm9hk6w

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by funwithjustin on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:56AM (#15282867)
I did some research on this a few months ago and landed on this book, which is highly recommended by physicians with interest in the relationship between gut health and autoimmune diseases.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15802745-the-immune-syst...

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by Mz on Monday September 18, 2017 @07:05PM (#15280476)
That depends on a) what health issues you have and b) how you currently eat (and c) probably other factors, like genetics and other unknown unknowns).

I do have a food blog if you want to follow my eating journey for some reason.

Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by avip on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @05:54AM (#15283133)
I think if you find a very healthy fellow human being, and eat him, you'll be in the sweet spot.
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by alonmower on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:57PM (#15288240)
Assuming they don't contain any prions
Re:Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis by autokad on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @09:24AM (#15284348)
eat what your ancestors ate.

in america, there is almost a shaming done if you do not eat other cultures foods, but other cultures mostly stick to their own food (and there is a good reason for that).