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Re:It appears my Google account is slated for deletion by glenstein on Tuesday September 12, 2017 @09:36PM (#15234773)
This is a great point, because I think it shows that people who are trying to redefine the contours of the standard free speech conversation (which had historically been about freedom from government imposed limits) are attempting to solve the wrong problem.

The problem is dependence on huge monolithic tech platforms, such that we feel that the societal value of free expression is threatened by the standard forms moderation that we had accepted as normal for most of the history of the internet.

Now, the ability to moderate carries a significant amount of power in a way that didn't use to be the case. And some people, looking over the available options and the effort required to pursue them, would now prefer to resign themselves to permanent dependence on huge monolithic platforms and just focus on making sure those platforms are not engaging in moderation.

But this is hugely problematic for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that moderation at least sometimes offers a genuine good to users because toxic, manipulative, illegal behaviors that undermine the platform are removed. There's a "societal value" in having flourishing discourse that isn't compromised by the toxicity that would naturally occur without moderation. And there is good reason to not want to make that sacrifice.

Either side offers a distasteful sacrifice. So maybe the answer is to try and bypass the dilemma by making non-centralized communication more accessible, so that people like your wife (or my mom, or my dad's entire side of the family) don't have to make that kind of choice.

Re:It appears my Google account is slated for deletion by jdietrich on Tuesday September 12, 2017 @10:24PM (#15235025)
There's also a very blurry line between a common carrier and a publisher. Social media platforms don't want to be liable for content published on their site, but they also want the right to delete content at their own discretion. Somehow, the courts have granted them this wish.

The USPS has a similar monopoly to YouTube, but they're obliged to transport any printed material that is legal. There's no hidden algorithm that shreds letters containing the wrong keywords. There's no team of Indian outsourcers searching your mail for content that breaches an arbitrary set of rules. Nobody but a court can prohibit you from using their service.

I think we collectively need to decide whether social media services are publishers or common carriers. The present ambiguity over their status gives them an unreasonable degree of power with unreasonably little responsibility.

Re:It appears my Google account is slated for deletion by dragonwriter on Tuesday September 12, 2017 @11:02PM (#15235171)
> The USPS has a similar monopoly to YouTube

No, the USPS has a legally-protected monopoly, where alternative services are prohibited from competing with certain core functions.

Alternative web video distribution services are not prohibited, and there are several that specialize in content that is unwelcome on YouTube.

> The present ambiguity over their status

What ambiguity? They are active distribution agents (neither publishers nor common carriers, in that regard, though they are often also publishers, more like bookstores).

It only seems “ambiguous” when framed with a false dichotomy.

Re:It appears my Google account is slated for deletion by stale2002 on Tuesday September 12, 2017 @11:52PM (#15235392)
The ambiguity is that facebook and youtube can't be sued for hosting illegal content. They are not responsible for user created content.

Yet, even though they have many of the legal protections of being a pseudo common carrier, they have none of the obligations, such as the obligation to treat all content equally.

For example, it is illegal for your phone provider to eaves drop on your conversations and censor your phone conversations.

But it is NOT illegal for facebook to do the same thing. Why are they treated differently?

Re:It appears my Google account is slated for deletion by dragonwriter on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @01:03AM (#15235694)
> The ambiguity is that facebook and youtube can't be sued for hosting illegal content.

Taking that as unvarnished truth [0], for the sake of argument, that's not at all an ambiguity, it's a crystal clear status.

> Yet, even though they have many of the legal protections of being a pseudo common carrier, they have none of the obligations, such as the obligation to treat all content equally.

Again, taking that as true for the sake of argument, its not an ambiguity, but a crystal clear status.

Its a conflict with the false dichotomy of the idea that the only two roles in information dissemination are fully-liable non-neutral publisher and fully-immunized neutral common carrier. That model isn't true offline, and it's not true online.

[0] Which it isn't, because while the CDA and DMCA (and others) provide some limited/conditional protection, they are not a total bar to liability; but the still the status is not ambiguous, merely distinct.

Re:It appears my Google account is slated for deletion by jiggunjer on Tuesday September 12, 2017 @11:26PM (#15235275)
You are comparing a postal service (1:1) with a broadcasting service (1:many). ISPs should be neutral carriers, but websites should be free to offer whatever services and terms they like. Given equal services, supply and demand should kill the ones with the most unfair ToS. The question of liability is more difficult, it might help if users had to register as real persons or companies (i.e. providing ID).
Re:It appears my Google account is slated for deletion by stale2002 on Tuesday September 12, 2017 @11:50PM (#15235385)
Why do you think that the distinction between 1:1 and 1:many matters?

I see no reason why 1:many platforms shouldn't have the same protections as a 1:1 platform.

Re:It appears my Google account is slated for deletion by jiggunjer on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @12:17AM (#15235495)
Because there is no established common carrier equivalent for a 1:many content service. So we are given the false choice of categorizing content platforms as either "common carrier" or "publisher", when they are actually in their own category and deserve their own legislation.

It is in the public interest to prohibit moderation by 1:1 common carriers. It is not in the public interest to prohibit moderation by '1:many common carriers'. But by virtue of being 'simple' carriers, they should both be free from liability for the content.

Note, however, I don't think it is very good to have these companies moderating themselves, but it's better than nothing at the moment. I'd propose legislating the scope of the moderation according to standards set by some internationally recognized ethics committee (not a government decreed scope, they are likely just as biased as a company).

Alternatively, platforms could offer something like a complex filter system that allows users to implement their own moderation policies. But this would increase the burden (costs) of the provider.

Re:It appears my Google account is slated for deletion by zaphirplane on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @03:40AM (#15236269)
Why should a for profit company be obligated to do something for you. Setup an irc or any xmpp server and knock your self out, oh you want to publish to people that find it offensive ! Too bad Ps you is not personally you more the wiser position
Re:It appears my Google account is slated for deletion by stale2002 on Sunday September 17, 2017 @04:47PM (#15271614)
They should be obligated to do something for the same reason that it is illegal for a phone company to eavesdrop on your phone calls and censor certain words.

There are tons of protections, already in place, on large networks.

Re:It appears my Google account is slated for deletion by rjsw on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @04:17AM (#15236441)
The USPS isn't unregulated though, mail fraud can be prosecuted.
Re:It appears my Google account is slated for deletion by yjftsjthsd-h on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @07:19AM (#15237194)
Because they arbitrarily decide they don't like it, or because it is actually illegal?
Re:It appears my Google account is slated for deletion by hossbeast on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @01:59AM (#15235907)
Are there any companies out there trying to make it easy for consumers to legitimately own/host all their own digital content?

If the price was reasonable people would go for it, as long as setup and maintenance is transparent (that's what the company's services help you achieve).

If the networks were federated .. like e.g. Mastodon ...

Re:It appears my Google account is slated for deletion by Stranger43 on Wednesday September 13, 2017 @03:48AM (#15236305)
How would such a company avoid having the choice of not selling to people they don't want to be associated with.

And then we come to hosting which is a gray zone in most retail contracts actually offering usable upload mostly because of bandwidth concerns and do we really trust the likes of Comcast not to play dirty when put under external pressure in regards to unpopular speech.