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Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by yread on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @09:58AM (#15183677)
> I did a port scan on the System Control Unit

Is that still white hat? Did they also check to see if the cockpit door is locked?

Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by tptacek on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:06AM (#15183752)
It's borderline; if something bad happens (and bad things definitely can happen from portscanning, especially embedded systems), you'll be on the hook for it.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by duxup on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:28AM (#15183941)
"you'll be on the hook for it."

Particularly if something goes terribly wrong and you're on the plane.

Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by tptacek on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:34AM (#15183988)
Nothing you do to the IFE is going to take down the plane.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by willvarfar on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:40AM (#15184033)
In theory the IFE and avionics are separated by firewalls. Some things like the PA system are often on the IFE side, and hacks for panasonic IFE have included impersonating the pilot announcements and stuff.

In practice I wouldn't expect the firewalls to be particularly well tested or complete or configured correctly, and it may be possible for an attacker to DOS the firewall and impact the other systems, and possible for the attacker to penetrate the firewall and so on.

Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by Neracked on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @11:23AM (#15184383)
Not really familiar with the Boeing architecture, but having worked on similar systems for other commercial aircraft, "firewall" is an understatement for the systems that act as gateways between the aircraft network domains with different criticality levels.

The IFE is in the Passenger Information and Entertainment Services Domain (as defined by the standard ARINC664 Aircraft Data Networks). A basic assumption regarding the connectivity to more sensitive domains is that PIESD is totally insecure and anything can happen.

Finally to people wondering why aircraft designers would physically connect networks with vastly different security requirements: it's for making it possible to share aircraft/ground communication means (satcom...)

Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by jonathanstrange on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:51AM (#15184118)
I find this hard to believe. I always thought that IFE and avionics are on separate machines and run over different internal networks and wires. But I'm also not a Boeing engineer.

Can someone confirm the above post?

Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by willvarfar on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @11:06AM (#15184247)
You or I would have completely different sets of wires.

Sadly, it seems they usually share wires and are separated by firewalls.

There's been lots of CCC and defcon talks about hacking in-flight systems. Googling "panasonic ife hack" gets plenty of hits, as does "Chris Roberts" who is a hacker who has made some pretty big claims about actually really hacking planes in flight and other stupid things. And there are articles like this https://www.wired.com/2015/04/hackers-commandeer-new-planes-... that talk about how the systems share wires.

Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by tptacek on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @11:27AM (#15184414)
I don't know anyone who believes those claims, which have become a kind of shared joke in the software security community.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by dkersten on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @01:31PM (#15185484)
Nobody in the office here (I work on IFE & avionics software) believes those claims either.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by willvarfar on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @11:38AM (#15184492)
Roberts? Yes.

Shared wires? That's fact, right?

Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by tptacek on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @12:06PM (#15184726)
I'm simply commenting on the notion that any packet he sent an IFE caused the plane to literally, perceptibly move. I don't need or want to derive the probability of that having occurred from first principles.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by JoblessWonder on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @12:32PM (#15184951)
I only have experience with smaller, general aviation aircraft (Turboprop, 8 seats) but the IFE is indeed connected to the same box that handles maintenance tools. The ipad we use to troubleshoot the engines is on the same wifi network that we use to watch videos.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by HalfTOXIC on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:53AM (#15184138)
Do you have source on panasonic IFE hacks? Sounds interesting.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by willvarfar on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @11:08AM (#15184263)
(Its mentioned in the opening paragraph of the article ;) Its been a big thing for a long time and there are lots of articles you can google too.)
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by HalfTOXIC on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @11:22AM (#15184374)
Doh! Thank you.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by susi22 on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:49AM (#15184102)
229 dead from an overheated entertainment system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissair_Flight_111
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by madshiva on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @11:28AM (#15184420)
faulty wiring in the cockpit after the entertainment system started to overheat. electronic device don't start to do arc wiring with a portscan. Stop spreading bad info.

Even if in any other dimension it can be possible, it's the responsability of who design the system for protect against this.

Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by zero_one_one on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @11:37AM (#15184483)
Agree with the last line 100% - although the same argument can just as easily be applied to any and all systems in any and all arenas. The fact that the potential exists leaves a margin for error, and a window for trouble, which is what the post is about. If the potential for failure in a system is there, it needs to be addressed and the effects nullified or mitigated.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by tptacek on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @11:02AM (#15184209)
Nothing you do to the IFE is going to take down the plane.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by tyingq on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @11:38AM (#15184494)
I agree it's not likely, but there can be some rare cascading scenarios. Like pilots may update electronic flight bag data via an onboard network which is separate from the entertainment network...but shares bandwidth with the same satellite transciever/antenna. Your port scan hogs the bandwidth somehow, resulting in somewhat less fresh data for tarmac conditions, etc. It's not likely, but it's possible.

And it doesn't have to be a dramatic life threatening situation to incur a boatload of financial liability. See this for example: http://nypost.com/2017/08/30/unruly-passenger-ordered-to-pay...

The other reply regarding the overheated IFE is another unlikely, but possible, scenario.

Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by michael_storm on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @11:12AM (#15184303)
So we're supposed to just take your word for it, in the face of contradictory evidence?
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by tptacek on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @11:26AM (#15184407)
You don't have to go any further than the Wikipedia article the previous commenter provided to see that no evidence has been provided for how sending packets to an IFE could take down a plane.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by michael_storm on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @08:44PM (#15188328)
Fair enough, but lack of evidence in this one case is not evidence that IFE systems are invincible. That's quite an extraordinary claim.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by pheldagryph on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @01:01PM (#15185207)
Hyperbole like this always makes me nervous. The probability is obviously not zero, politely suggesting the question: "what has been missed in this analysis?"
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by duxup on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @11:19AM (#15184357)
It shouldn't.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by greedo on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @11:19AM (#15184354)
This isn't a publicly accessible system like a webserver. This is an entertainment device on a plane.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by tptacek on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @11:25AM (#15184396)
It's not your intuition about the IFE hardware that's problematic; it's your intuition about the "publicly accessible system like a webserver".
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by greedo on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @03:05PM (#15186235)
I meant from a legal standpoint. Accessing an IFE from a personal device you take on an airplane will be viewed differently in court than running nmap on your laptop against a webserver hosted on AWS.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by mdekkers on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @12:19PM (#15184854)
Is that still white hat?

I think if you are not specifically asked to do it, it isn't white hat, and I think (but am not 100% sure) the law is like that. I don't know what hat it is, but white it isn't.

Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by Cthulhu_ on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @09:59AM (#15183692)
Scanning should be fine; trying to access them becomes dubious; bruteforcing the login could lead to arrest.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by Diederich on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:14AM (#15183820)
At one of the companies I worked at, years ago, a service discovery system I wrote did a very light scan of every listening port bound on every system. One thing it did was an HTTP GET.

One of the core apps had a control port that implemented HTTP. Unfortunately, my GET hit a route that didn't exist, and that caused a small memory leak every time.

Nothing too bad happened; the leak was slow, and even though the app stayed up many months at a time, we did notice the leak and figured out what was causing it.

As others have stated elsewhere, I've seen completely 'easy going' TCP connections to embedded devices cause immediate crashes.

Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by davrosthedalek on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:02AM (#15183711)
I had a projector firmware freeze up hard on me during a port scan. There is some risk there.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by angrygoat on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @11:03AM (#15184220)
I used to work at a university, and would routinely (with authorisation) nmap the entire /16. I discovered this would freeze the TCP/IP stack on a bunch of VMS boxes on campus - luckily on VMS that was restartable without bouncing the box :-)
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by theWatcher37 on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:10AM (#15183785)
So what does that say about the wisdom of port scanning a machine your life is currently depending on?
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by dx034 on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:18AM (#15183856)
It would probably not harm the aircraft but would be bad enough if it freezes the entertainment system for all passengers. If the ~300 other people on board find out that you're the one responsible for their boredom on a 10 hour flight, you won't have a great time.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by alkonaut on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @02:13PM (#15185835)
Has anyone taken a 10h flight where the IFE was not rebooted due to some problem?

Agree the IFE could crash, but can't see how there is even a remote risk to critical systems, or any risk to the IFE that isn't solved by (yet another) reboot of it.

Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by throwawayjava on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:16AM (#15183836)
If that plane ever plans to enter US or EU airspace, there is a literal air-gap between the IFE and the flight systems.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by Neracked on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @11:53AM (#15184606)
The Federal Aviation Administration has issued special conditions for the certification of the 787 to deal with the fact that there is no "literal airgap" in recent airliners even though that was initially mandated by the airworthiness standards:

> These special conditions are issued for the Boeing Model 787-8 airplane. This airplane will have novel or unusual design features when compared to the state of technology envisioned in the airworthiness standards for transport category airplanes. The architecture of the Boeing Model 787-8 computer systems and networks may allow access to external systems and networks

[1] https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2007/12/28/E7-2507...

Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by WhitneyLand on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:31AM (#15183973)
Then how is it showing the flight metrics?

I wouldn’t guess they would add double sensors for all that information.

Or did you mean well protected, instead of literal air gap?

Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by panda88888 on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @11:10AM (#15184277)
I am not a Boeing engineer, but I do have some experience in avionics design.

The flight critical systems would be isolated from in-flight entertainment system (IFE). The IFE probably has a listen-only tap to flight metric info on an ARINC databus from the flight computer. I did a quick search and looks like 787 uses ARINC 667, a fiber optic interconnect.

Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by KekDemaga on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:35AM (#15184001)
One way connection of some kind? Its not an air gap but may functionally work the same way.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by fragmede on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:42AM (#15184048)
Optoisolators are a prolific and an extremely cheap electrical component that performs the "air-gap" functionality.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by SAI_Peregrinus on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @01:01PM (#15185204)
Electrical safety airgapping and information security airgapping are different, and entirely unrelated. If data can pass from one side to the other it's not airgapped (from an infosec perspective).
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by bonzini on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @02:59PM (#15186206)
Fiber needs transmitter and receiver transducers. If each side has only one of those, data can literally flow only in one direction. So it's still infosec-airgapped in the other.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by SAI_Peregrinus on Thursday September 07, 2017 @02:53PM (#15194713)
No, data diodes are a different (but related) concept. An airgap implies no information transfer, either in or out. Use an airgap when information leakage must be stopped (as well as remote attacks), use a data diode when information can be released but you need to stop remote attacks.

Fiber optic connections aren't required, anything with separate transmit and receive lines can be turned into a data diode (as long as the protocols used permit it). RS232 null modem cables with the RX lines disconnected are a classic.

Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by eeZah7Ux on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @11:14AM (#15184314)
No, that's not airgapping.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by evan_ on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:43AM (#15184056)
I don't know enough about airplanes to know if it would be unencrypted but they radio all of that same data to the ground in some way, could the IFE system just passively listen to that broadcast?
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by Faaak on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:47AM (#15184086)
GPS + external sensors for pressure, wheels, …
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:15AM (#15183825)
He probably should've done his port scan once the plane was on the ground. Though I'd be REALLY worried if there was even the slightest risk of network access to the IFE causing a flight control device of any kind to seize up, and would hope that someone at Boeing made sure that was not possible.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by kylegordon on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:18AM (#15183852)
Do you honestly believe your life depends on the stability of an in flight entertainment computer?
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by mikeash on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:47AM (#15184083)
If your fellow passengers found out who killed the movies in the middle of a long flight... in this particular case, yes, it might.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by t90fan on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:02AM (#15183714)
Scanning can lead to arrest in some places.

In the UK for example, the computer misuse act says that using any tool with the intent of accessing a system (without actually doing so, let alone doing so successfully) is an offence.

Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by blincoln on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:24AM (#15183916)
It could easily be interpreted as a CFAA violation in the US as well. I'm a professional pen tester, and there's no chance I'd port-scan any system on an aircraft without permission.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by lordlimecat on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @01:20PM (#15185388)
It's almost like theres a reason every computer security class and every scanning software written has a disclaimer saying "NEVER SCAN A SYSTEM WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION".
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by duxup on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:27AM (#15183932)
I wondered the same. Right or wrong some equipment does not respond well (lockup, reset...) to port scanning.
Re:Boeing 787 In Flight Entertainment System Security fun by zero_one_one on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @01:09PM (#15185281)
Irresponsibility is not solely the domain of Black Hats...