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Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by brookside on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:27AM (#15174839)
That anger could be reasonable or not, depending on your opinions.
Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by anbende on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:38AM (#15174940)
Anger at another perspective might be argued to be reasonable. There are some pretty abhorrent perspectives in the world. Getting into a fistfight with someone because they hold a different point of view, no matter how heinous, is absolutely and unequivocally unacceptable.

The idea that there are points of view (not actions or laws but ideas) that warrant violence is a large and growing problem.

Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by classybull on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:42AM (#15174997)
Not to Godwin it or anything, but...

Wasn't the passivity and meekness of the opposition the exact reason fascists were able to rise relatively easily in the intrawar period?

Personally, I think the concept that there aren't ideas worth throwing a punch over is equally as repugnant as saying you should punch anyone you disagree with.

Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by Bartweiss on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @10:12AM (#15175344)
> Wasn't the passivity and meekness of the opposition the exact reason fascists were able to rise relatively easily in the intrawar period?

No, it wasn't. I can't speak to what passivity would have caused, maybe things would have been even worse in Germany, but we can't really know, because 'passivity and meekness' didn't happen.

From around the time hyperinflation started, Weimar Germany was torn apart by openly violent factionalism. There was no significant period where fascists propagandized and recruited freely, or even did so without violent opposition. Bear in mind that the Beer Hall Putsch saw 16 Nazis and 4 police officers die, plus a large number of arrests.

The Sturmabteilung, the Nazi paramilitary arm, was only one of many streetfighting organizations pushing to violently resist and silence its opponents. The RotFront was a famous paramilitary group advocating total communist revolution, which led major actions against the SA. The Stahlhelm were reactionary, monarchist conservatives who opposed the Weimar government, communists, and Nazis. The Iron Front were center-leftist paramilitaries whose 'three arrows' logo represented opposition to fascists, communists, and monarchists alike.

All of these groups engaged in extensive streetfighting and propagandizing, and everyone who wasn't the SA hated the Nazis. There was no shortage of anti-fascist violence in Germany - most visibly in the early thirties, but beginning well before that.

The lesson of interwar Germany isn't that tolerance breeds fascism. It's that streetfighting violence can fail completely. Fighting Nazism with rocks and clubs was tried, to no effect - it turns out that beatings neither dissuade nor deconvert people. In the end, the violence which solved the problem was a war, which proceeds on rather different lines - it changes views by killing people with said views.

I agree that there are plenty of ideas worth fighting for. But the claim that passivity is what enabled fascism in Germany is factually false; passivity simply wasn't the state of affairs in the Weimar period.

Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by vorotato on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:49AM (#15175083)
The position "Your people shouldn't exist", or "Your people shouldn't be in this country" to be specific. Tolerance to all but the intolerant. This is because if we tolerate the intolerant, they'll just eliminate tolerance, and then nobody will get to express their views.
Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by bsenftner on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @10:04AM (#15175256)
You describe the Paradox of Tolerance: for a tolerant society to exist, it must be intolerant towards intolerance, or the intolerant slowly dominate.

This is the paradox enabling many to blindly say Antifa is a racist or fascist organization. No, they are the intolerant side of tolerance laying down the law. Without them, any tolerant society devolves slowly to fascism.

Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by peoplewindow on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @10:53AM (#15175790)
It's not a paradox, it's just doublethink.

The key is to realise that the "Antifa" agenda has nothing to do with tolerance, regardless of what they claim.

Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by vorotato on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:05AM (#15183740)
That's not actually an argument? Also the Paradox of Tolerance is a paradox and is a component of decision theory, and is a pretty well understood mathematical construct. So you can't argue that the Paradox of Tolerance isn't a thing you can only argue that the Nazis and KKK aren't intolerant. Most people would disagree with that...
Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by peoplewindow on Thursday September 07, 2017 @04:10AM (#15189930)
The "Paradox" you are citing was posed by a philosopher, not a mathematician. Philosophy is not mathematics, no matter how much they might like the association.

This isn't as complicated or confounding as you seem to think. The "fascists" that Antifa think they're fighting aren't attempting to overthrow the government or build armies of SS-style street thugs. They are usually just protesting, or sometimes trying to give a speech at a university.

Speech should be countered with more speech. Violence, with violence in the proportion needed to stop it.

Antifa's agenda is to use violence to suppress speech. Like a lot of self-righteous activity it is rooted in hypocrisy. Their goal is to stop people from disagreeing with their political agenda by labelling any such disagreement as "Nazi" or "fascist" and then claiming their violence is justified as otherwise they'd be "tolerating intolerance". It is doublethink.

Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by vorotato on Monday September 11, 2017 @04:36PM (#15222067)
I never mentioned antifa and I don't care to discuss whether violence is or is not effective at making social change. I'm personally not a violent person, so that's not my path.

Secondly it is a component of decision theory and yes philosophers can propose mathematical propositions that do get rigorously investigated by real mathematicians. Saying a philosopher can't do math is probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by bsenftner on Saturday September 16, 2017 @04:32AM (#15263606)
"Antifa's agenda is to use violence to suppress speech." Wrong. Antifa's entire purpose is to pose as the alternative thugs, ready to act should the intolerance groups choose execute their more overt agendas. I have participated, and the strict line we draw is only interact when someone's person space is violated. As a basic rule, that's pretty solid.
Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by meric on Thursday September 07, 2017 @04:14AM (#15189938)
The paradox of tolerance is false - the intolerant can change their minds - it's their intolerant ideas that must be attacked, not the person whose minds hold those ideas. The persons always deserve to be treated with as if they are fellow human beings, because they are.

Those ones who would not tolerate those with intolerant ideas, have intolerant ideas too, and they must be convinced their ideas are wrong.

Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by vorotato on Monday September 11, 2017 @04:39PM (#15222082)
The paradox of tolerance isn't false, and doesn't make the claims you're saying are false. I think you're conflating the person who responded to me in support of antifa and tolerating vs not tolerating. There are many ways to be intollerant, and violence does not have to be one of those ways. I won't have the discussion around the effectiveness of violence in changing discourse as I am non-violent so it is not my place.
Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by anbende on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @07:50PM (#15180030)
It's not that there aren't ideas that are important, it's that violence is really really awful. Punch someone in the face for holding, for example, a racist view, and what happens? He becomes more entrenched in his view. And more angry. And more violent. What doesn't happen? His racism is never ever 'punched away'. So what was the point of that? Maybe it sated the punchers anger, but it made the situation unequivocally worse.

One thing that it is important to distinguish is holding an idea versus acting on it. The fascists were acting on their views, not merely holding them and talking about them. And violence may demand violence. And action, passing laws that enslave and oppress, that may demand violence too in some circumstances. But speech, even organized speech, demands speech not violence. It may demand a LOT of speech. But it does not demand violence.

If a person is willing to use violence to silence an opposing view that is being non-violently spoken, then that is the worse thing in my view. This includes the violent suppression of racist and sexist and other discriminatory views. Though I detest those positions, I detest violence more.

Now, inciting people to violence. Calling people to violence. I do believe that that is a different issue. And one that I do not know how to deal with.

Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by bsenftner on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:57AM (#15175180)
I doubt they got into a fist fight over their opinions, the fist fight erupted over their delivery of their opinions and the lack of respect each gave the others' opinion.

Holding different opinions is natural to everyone. It is the treatment of how one listens, your body language while listening, the amount of time given after one stops speaking before a counterpoint is given. Fights erupt when people do not listen, and of course when one side can't articulate their position and the conversation devolves from mature.

Two respectful mature adults can talk about any painful subject. If you can't, that's an indication of a need to mature, either yourself or your attitude towards others.

Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by subru on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:31AM (#15174873)
No, it's not reasonable. It's a vote, not justification to throw fists or anything in between, even.
Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by AndrewDucker on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:34AM (#15174899)
A vote to treat people badly is _absolutely_ a good reason to be angry at someone.

If you're voting to take away people's healthcare, or to discriminate against them based on who they love, or their gender, then of course they are angry!

Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by ams6110 on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:39AM (#15174964)
Still no excuse for physical violence. Votes are how we make decisions in our society. You don't always win. You can argue your position all you want, but you don't get to intimidate others with violence.
Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by brookside on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:44AM (#15175018)
Am I missing where somebody in this thread was advocating for violence?
Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by gizmo on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:50AM (#15175105)
Taking away people's healthcare is violence though.
Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by saint_fiasco on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @10:18AM (#15175405)
Nobody can tell you what to feel, and it's unfair to expect you to not feel angry about stuff that is important to you.

But it's fair to expect that you won't get into a fistfight with someone just because they make you angry.

Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by plandis on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @10:30AM (#15175546)
That's fair but as we keep seeing from radical Conservatives, you can and possibly will be attacked for holding certain views.
Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by 2017Dude on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:38AM (#15174944)
What if you vote for someone willing to pardon long-overstaying illegal aliens?
Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by anon1385 on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:34AM (#15174902)
OP said the fight was about a different viewpoint, not voting for a different party. There's a whole world of viewpoints outside the two dominant political parties in the US.
Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by brookside on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:40AM (#15174972)
Throwing fists is violence, not anger.
Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by dwringer on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:45AM (#15175032)
OP edited the original comment to mention an alleged fist fight after getting a slew of responses directed at the "anger" aspect.
Re:At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics... by kurthr on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:51AM (#15175116)
"I think your kind is an abomination that should be hearded into camps and slaughtered", is a political opinion that might well lead to a fight or 'anything in between'. It has little to do with a vote. Some 'conservative' people now believe it's ok to voice those opponions at work. We don't know what was said based on the parent, and we don't know how it escalated... so maybe that's it?

Some people won't be cowed by a publicly aggressive racist... I'd tell my boss that I'm uncomfortable working with them. I'm not a snowflake, if someone else can't handle my speach and the resulting consequences of their own.