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Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by chii on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @03:12AM (#15173094)
There are some aspects of doing math that isn't fun, because it is grinding. Learning the time tables for example - you just have to do lots of exercises to get used to multiplying. No way around that.

Just like in sports, where you must also do a lot of basic practise to get good.

Making the practise like a game can be done to done degree, but ultimately, a kid is going to see through that after a while, since it gets boring.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by zaptheimpaler on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @04:46AM (#15173467)
Thats the kind of BS math they shouldn't bother teaching. Most of math is about concepts, and if 5 year olds can grapple with super-basic calculus how about teaching 10 year olds proof-based math and concepts (closer to college level) than memorization?

Its kind of dumb how arithmetic is seen as a precursor to math when its really not. You could do an ENTIRE college-level course in linear algebra or calculus or graph theory or even combinatorics perfectly well even if you have no idea what 11*15 is off the top of your head and have to look it up every time.

Its just a ridiculously backwards approach to teaching. We don't teach CS by testing people on memorizing syntax and API calls - they are rightly relegated to "google it when you need it, eventually you'll remember it". Of course algorithms are more interesting and building things is more fun so we focus on that.

Current way of teaching math is just a historical accident IMO. No real reason it couldn't be conceptual and interesting from the start if there wasn't so much inertia around current systems.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by Ntrails on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @06:50AM (#15173958)
Of course understanding fourier transforms isn't reliant on my ability to do 6x7 - but arithmetic as a lifeskill is actually valuable. It's like saying that grammar and spelling aren't important because spellcheck will sort it out.

Splitting out arithmetic from "Maths" doesn't seem terribly sensible to me. Times tables aren't really problematic, and they do provide opportunities to teach valuable concepts (5x6 = 6x5).

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by eecc on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @07:31AM (#15174136)
No, you're straying away from the original point which was: there's no need to make rote memorization of arithmetic tricks and multiplication tables a hard prerequisite to everything else about math. Nobody claimed that arithmetic is absolutely useless
Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by mannykannot on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:48AM (#15175071)
I think it is undeniable that both a certain level of working memory and of basic algebra is necessary to understand mathematics at the next level. Someone who could actually understand an "entire college-level course in linear algebra or calculus or graph theory or even combinatorics perfectly well", yet be unable to remember a basic multiplication table, or figure out how to calculate 11*15, would have a very interesting pathology.
Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by Ntrails on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @08:37AM (#15174502)
It is never hard blocked on arithmetic though (in the UK at least). A bunch of simple numerical solving will be harder without being able to do multiplication in your head - but certainly someone could get through without.

I'm honestly dubious of anyone who claims that the reason people hate maths is because of times tables.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by zaptheimpaler on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @06:14PM (#15179547)
Well a lot of people who dislike math do so because they think its all about rote calculation. Not just times tables, even algebra can be seen as a completely syntactic procedure - memorizing a bunch of rules. Another example - if you are taught 10 different "templates" of problems and solutions in calculus class and memorize which equations to apply where, you can solve a lot of problems without ever building any intuition.

If someone thinks of math that way, I can understand why it would be boring to them. Thats what I mean by blocked on arithmetic. If every thing is taught as a cookie-cutter process to follow its not surprising that people associate math with blindly following processes.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by Ntrails on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @04:06AM (#15181950)
> If every thing is taught as a cookie-cutter process to follow its not surprising that people associate math with blindly following processes.

A hammer and a chisel are tools. You can use them to shave a bit of wood off the door, or you can use them to carve a beautiful sculpture. You can do neither without knowing how to use them.

I agree that too much of maths teaching is "here are 100 quadratics, go solve them" - which is obnoxious and dull. But "blindly following process" (matrix multiplication, change of variables/base, sum to infinity etc) happened throughout my degree and is a component of higher maths as well. Heck, most of the proofs I remember use "tricks" that any mathematician is expected to just know.

I sure as hell don't think children are taught maths well. I remember being taught how to take the derivative of x^2 without the teacher bothering to show where that came from or what it really meant. Heck - children are given the quadratic formula to memorise and basically told "it's magic, learn it" instead of showing them how you can trivially create it by completing the square.

But mathematics does involves a ton of following some process or other to get the problem into a format you can do something with. Probably by following a different process that you've done before. I'm not sold that you can simply eliminate that aspect.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by zaptheimpaler on Thursday September 07, 2017 @08:20AM (#15191131)
Seems like we agree. I am only saying current math is too focused on the mechanical processes, so much that many people never even see the other (more important) conceptual side. Times tables don't need to be taught in class - there is nothing to teach. They just need to be memorized by students.
Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by ashark on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @10:36AM (#15175601)
> Thats the kind of BS math they shouldn't bother teaching. Most of math is about concepts, and if 5 year olds can grapple with super-basic calculus how about teaching 10 year olds proof-based math and concepts (closer to college level) than memorization?

The times tables are BS math? The thing I've used IRL literally hundreds (thousands?) of times more than I've ever used anything from, say, calculus? The thing that yes I could use a calculator for but damn would it get annoying because I use it so often? That's what we should stop teaching?

Math things I use a lot in actual real life: basic arithmetic (drilled skills/knowledge!), basic algebra, factions/percentages (converting one to the other, and scaling other numbers by them—the basic arithmetic stuff is also vital here), and generally how triangles work. That's... almost all of it, actually. Some high-school-level stats stuff from time to time, I guess.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by tttt5 on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @06:44AM (#15173930)
Being able to recognize that 11 * 15 = 10*15 + 15 may be related to success in higher level math courses like linear algebra and calculus.
Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by noir_lord on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @10:29AM (#15175521)
I never learnt my times tables when I was little I just learnt how to do the multiplications in my head on the fly.

Years later when I worked in a shop I used to cost complex print jobs in my head and co-workers though it was magic.

The way maths is taught in the UK is largely how and very rarely why.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by njarboe on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @10:28PM (#15180747)
If you don't know up to 9x9, then doing basic algebraic problems become vary cumbersome. Factoring and simplification becomes a chore and one can't get into a good flow if you are typing in 2x5 into a calculator.

On the other hand, I can't imagine anywhere that would expect one to know 11x15 off the top of ones head.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by roceasta on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @05:38AM (#15173683)
>Learning the time tables for example - you just have to do lots of exercises to get used to multiplying. No way around that.

Learning how to perform mental arithmetic with the aid of pencil and paper was a way to escape from the grind of farm work. One could get a respectable job as a clerk. However with the advent of electronic cash registers and smartphones a way around this later form of grind has also been found. So no need to make it compulsory. Which isn't to say that people don't choose to practice specific things they personally consider useful. Even gamers do that.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by ajuc on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @10:51AM (#15175750)
Can't understand modern world without understanding statistic, can't do that without algebra and basic calculus, can't do that without being at least adequate at mental multiplication (for calculating parameters in equations and understanding how they change without interrupting your train of thought every 3 seconds).

So yeah, I think you still need to grind these multiplication tables, even if you have perfect version of Wolphram Alpha on your smartphone. It won't tell you what question to ask.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by roceasta on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @01:19PM (#15177194)
Have you noticed that most adults don't know what nine times seven is? If you ask them on the street they'll mostly either get it wrong or tell you quite rudely to go away. This is despite (and because of) a decade of grind at school. Or have you noticed that people are unable to hold a conversation in a foreign language despite years of 'study' in a classroom? Whereas an enthusiastic individual can pick up basic conversation for themselves in a matter of months.

This is because coercion in education is: (1) painful, (2) prophetic, (3) it doesn't work!

What happens in real life is that if somebody needs to know something because they are keen to do something else then they will learn it efficiently, 'just in time' and precisely to the extent needed. Assuming their creativity is relatively intact...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by ajuc on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:39AM (#15184025)
Not really (but then I never asked random people to multiply for me :) ).

But I can kinda understand why, you almost never have to multiply 9*7 by hand. If you're doing algebra or any symbolic calculations you rarely use digits other than 0-4.

In real world Benford's law + usual rounding greatly reduces the need to multiply by 7 or 9 (or 8 for that matter).

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by jacobolus on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @06:17AM (#15173842)
> Learning the time tables for example - you just have to do lots of exercises to get used to multiplying. No way around that.

The way around is to just not do that.

Students get huge amounts of practice with basic multiplication if they are assigned more interesting problems/projects that use multiplication as one step, and will inevitably memorize all of the same basic facts, assuming they actually do the work.

Memorizing multiplication facts for their own sake is a soul-sucking waste of time that turns kids off from math for good.

Similarly, the way to get good at spelling is by reading engrossing books for hours every day and writing about subjects of personal interest. Studying lists of spelling words in school is beyond pointless.

These are not skills like sports or playing musical instruments, where there is a particular physical technique involving fine muscle coordination, where practicing incorrectly will establish wrong movements. Instead we’re talking about simple verbal/linguistic recall of previously seen information.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by Micoloth on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @04:29AM (#15173392)
Maybe they could present kids with timetable After showing them more variate and interesting concepts, so that at that point they have both the spark of interest and the maturity to understand multiplication is important and the attitude at learning that makes it not a torture.

I'm just making things up tho