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Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by roceasta on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @02:46AM (#15173006)
The fact that school math is thought to be 'scary' and 'hard' is not the issue. Plenty of video games are known to be scary and hard. For instance, they contain monsters and are difficult to complete. They even have objective grades (scores).

What makes the difference is that video games aren't compulsory. So they represent true play. Which is what makes them educational, unlike a school curriculum, however much it is tweaked. Well, until something more fun than video games arrives on the scene...

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by iovrthoughtthis on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @07:07AM (#15174043)
Hard and scary carry differently meanings in those contexts though, surely?

Video games are safe e.g you can always try again, you can do incrementally well.

Video games are scary in an exhilarating way, you blood will pump and your pupils will dilate but at the end you can put it down, turn the lights on and watch funny cat videos to recover.

Math (at school) is hard because you get one shot. Finite lives. After enough retries society says "nope, you're done". It's hard because you can't test yourself when ever you want and your study is not directly related to your tests.

Math is scary like anxious scary. Like stay up at night dreading your exam or don't sleep for a weekend to finish your report scary. You can't watch cat videos and hope it goes away because it won't. You can't buy a new math or try it again in a few years.

You get one shot. You get little to no feed back.

That's hard and scary.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by roceasta on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:35AM (#15174907)
Nicely illustrated. As you imply, the scariness is a property of schooling rather than of mathematics itself. And where game play is scary, it's at a level chosen by and controlled by the player, for optimal learning I suspect.
Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by occultist_throw on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @10:47AM (#15175698)
Not only that, but with "GPA" provides a running historical average that serves as a sign that:

"No matter how good the student is now, they sucked at one time and they can never escape this eventuality".

Imagine a game that's tough, full of oft-used rules, failure potentialities everywhere, limited lives, and punishes failure/learning cycle. That's School.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by occultist_throw on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @07:38AM (#15174178)
And you succinctly put why I despise "School".

I love learning new areas and new techniques. And when Im teaching myself, I can fail and I go back a step or 2. Not the end of the world.

If I do similar in a class, then I set myself further back with a slowly growing chance of doing badly (D or F). And in College, then its another 1-4 credit hours to pay for the privilege. They not only fail me, but demand more money.

Edit: misspelling that looked bad (dong=>doing)

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by roceasta on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:28AM (#15174849)
I think this also explains why driving tests aren't as bad as school: they are pass/fail and one can re-take as many times as wanted.
Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by iovrthoughtthis on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @11:37AM (#15176252)
I must have attempted to implement a lisp many times before I got it "right", or a "simple" perceptron etc.

Without the pressure I'm not scared of revisiting hard things, I'm driven to actually.

Edit: to indicate that a "simple" perceptron isn't actually that simple.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by kazinator on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @04:16PM (#15178747)
> I must have attempted to implement a lisp many times before I got it "right"

How did you know it wasn't right? Did you run into a problem trying to implement requirements which you knew all along and accepted? (As in, you started coding without planning for some of these requirements ahead of time, then got stuck?)

Or did you learn about and adopt new requirements which weren't easy to retrofit into the existing work in progress?

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by iovrthoughtthis on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @12:20PM (#15184859)
Good question. I guess by "right" here I mean an implementation that I was happy with. Not nessesarily standards compliant or complete.

In my early attempts it was things like parsing which tripped me up. I'd implement something that broke the bracketed lists up into a list of tokens and then get stuck nesting those lists into an ast. Abandon an implementation for a while and then try again at the problem, often with a fresh implementation.

Then is was evaluating expressions, when to evaluate the arguments and exploring different approaches (fexprs).

I'd do these iterations across months and with different languages. First python then JavaScript, Ruby, C.

My favourite was the JavaScript implementation. Lisp code is literate and I bootstrapped most of the built in functions by exposing the environment as a cons tree (and working with cons trees internally in the interpreter).

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by eli_gottlieb on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @07:18AM (#15174081)
Video games also don't have social promotion or enforced curriculum "progression". If you die in the first level of a video game, you play it repeatedly until you legitimately merit entering the second level.

If you get a mediocre grade on a math test, even a failure, we shove you into the next subject in the curriculum. When you start failing that because new math builds on mastery of old math, we tell you you're not a math person and should probably major in Literature.

Then we go complain to the other math teachers that students are lazy and apathetic, and ask each-other how it is that math PhD students manage to spontaneously generate from such piles of shit.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by jonnybgood on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @03:13AM (#15173099)
I'm not disagreeing with you. 'Scary' and 'hard' becomes an issue when that's all that's being said about math. Video games are 'scary' and 'hard' but... they're also fascinating and fun. The popular math narrative is incomplete unlike video games. Why is that? Dr. Eugenia Cheng says it much better and has a good answer as to why [1].

[1] http://www.pbs.org/video/math-is-amazing-and-we-have-to-star...

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by chii on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @03:12AM (#15173094)
There are some aspects of doing math that isn't fun, because it is grinding. Learning the time tables for example - you just have to do lots of exercises to get used to multiplying. No way around that.

Just like in sports, where you must also do a lot of basic practise to get good.

Making the practise like a game can be done to done degree, but ultimately, a kid is going to see through that after a while, since it gets boring.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by zaptheimpaler on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @04:46AM (#15173467)
Thats the kind of BS math they shouldn't bother teaching. Most of math is about concepts, and if 5 year olds can grapple with super-basic calculus how about teaching 10 year olds proof-based math and concepts (closer to college level) than memorization?

Its kind of dumb how arithmetic is seen as a precursor to math when its really not. You could do an ENTIRE college-level course in linear algebra or calculus or graph theory or even combinatorics perfectly well even if you have no idea what 11*15 is off the top of your head and have to look it up every time.

Its just a ridiculously backwards approach to teaching. We don't teach CS by testing people on memorizing syntax and API calls - they are rightly relegated to "google it when you need it, eventually you'll remember it". Of course algorithms are more interesting and building things is more fun so we focus on that.

Current way of teaching math is just a historical accident IMO. No real reason it couldn't be conceptual and interesting from the start if there wasn't so much inertia around current systems.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by Ntrails on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @06:50AM (#15173958)
Of course understanding fourier transforms isn't reliant on my ability to do 6x7 - but arithmetic as a lifeskill is actually valuable. It's like saying that grammar and spelling aren't important because spellcheck will sort it out.

Splitting out arithmetic from "Maths" doesn't seem terribly sensible to me. Times tables aren't really problematic, and they do provide opportunities to teach valuable concepts (5x6 = 6x5).

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by eecc on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @07:31AM (#15174136)
No, you're straying away from the original point which was: there's no need to make rote memorization of arithmetic tricks and multiplication tables a hard prerequisite to everything else about math. Nobody claimed that arithmetic is absolutely useless
Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by mannykannot on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:48AM (#15175071)
I think it is undeniable that both a certain level of working memory and of basic algebra is necessary to understand mathematics at the next level. Someone who could actually understand an "entire college-level course in linear algebra or calculus or graph theory or even combinatorics perfectly well", yet be unable to remember a basic multiplication table, or figure out how to calculate 11*15, would have a very interesting pathology.
Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by Ntrails on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @08:37AM (#15174502)
It is never hard blocked on arithmetic though (in the UK at least). A bunch of simple numerical solving will be harder without being able to do multiplication in your head - but certainly someone could get through without.

I'm honestly dubious of anyone who claims that the reason people hate maths is because of times tables.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by zaptheimpaler on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @06:14PM (#15179547)
Well a lot of people who dislike math do so because they think its all about rote calculation. Not just times tables, even algebra can be seen as a completely syntactic procedure - memorizing a bunch of rules. Another example - if you are taught 10 different "templates" of problems and solutions in calculus class and memorize which equations to apply where, you can solve a lot of problems without ever building any intuition.

If someone thinks of math that way, I can understand why it would be boring to them. Thats what I mean by blocked on arithmetic. If every thing is taught as a cookie-cutter process to follow its not surprising that people associate math with blindly following processes.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by Ntrails on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @04:06AM (#15181950)
> If every thing is taught as a cookie-cutter process to follow its not surprising that people associate math with blindly following processes.

A hammer and a chisel are tools. You can use them to shave a bit of wood off the door, or you can use them to carve a beautiful sculpture. You can do neither without knowing how to use them.

I agree that too much of maths teaching is "here are 100 quadratics, go solve them" - which is obnoxious and dull. But "blindly following process" (matrix multiplication, change of variables/base, sum to infinity etc) happened throughout my degree and is a component of higher maths as well. Heck, most of the proofs I remember use "tricks" that any mathematician is expected to just know.

I sure as hell don't think children are taught maths well. I remember being taught how to take the derivative of x^2 without the teacher bothering to show where that came from or what it really meant. Heck - children are given the quadratic formula to memorise and basically told "it's magic, learn it" instead of showing them how you can trivially create it by completing the square.

But mathematics does involves a ton of following some process or other to get the problem into a format you can do something with. Probably by following a different process that you've done before. I'm not sold that you can simply eliminate that aspect.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by zaptheimpaler on Thursday September 07, 2017 @08:20AM (#15191131)
Seems like we agree. I am only saying current math is too focused on the mechanical processes, so much that many people never even see the other (more important) conceptual side. Times tables don't need to be taught in class - there is nothing to teach. They just need to be memorized by students.
Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by ashark on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @10:36AM (#15175601)
> Thats the kind of BS math they shouldn't bother teaching. Most of math is about concepts, and if 5 year olds can grapple with super-basic calculus how about teaching 10 year olds proof-based math and concepts (closer to college level) than memorization?

The times tables are BS math? The thing I've used IRL literally hundreds (thousands?) of times more than I've ever used anything from, say, calculus? The thing that yes I could use a calculator for but damn would it get annoying because I use it so often? That's what we should stop teaching?

Math things I use a lot in actual real life: basic arithmetic (drilled skills/knowledge!), basic algebra, factions/percentages (converting one to the other, and scaling other numbers by them—the basic arithmetic stuff is also vital here), and generally how triangles work. That's... almost all of it, actually. Some high-school-level stats stuff from time to time, I guess.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by tttt5 on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @06:44AM (#15173930)
Being able to recognize that 11 * 15 = 10*15 + 15 may be related to success in higher level math courses like linear algebra and calculus.
Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by noir_lord on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @10:29AM (#15175521)
I never learnt my times tables when I was little I just learnt how to do the multiplications in my head on the fly.

Years later when I worked in a shop I used to cost complex print jobs in my head and co-workers though it was magic.

The way maths is taught in the UK is largely how and very rarely why.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by njarboe on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @10:28PM (#15180747)
If you don't know up to 9x9, then doing basic algebraic problems become vary cumbersome. Factoring and simplification becomes a chore and one can't get into a good flow if you are typing in 2x5 into a calculator.

On the other hand, I can't imagine anywhere that would expect one to know 11x15 off the top of ones head.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by roceasta on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @05:38AM (#15173683)
>Learning the time tables for example - you just have to do lots of exercises to get used to multiplying. No way around that.

Learning how to perform mental arithmetic with the aid of pencil and paper was a way to escape from the grind of farm work. One could get a respectable job as a clerk. However with the advent of electronic cash registers and smartphones a way around this later form of grind has also been found. So no need to make it compulsory. Which isn't to say that people don't choose to practice specific things they personally consider useful. Even gamers do that.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by ajuc on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @10:51AM (#15175750)
Can't understand modern world without understanding statistic, can't do that without algebra and basic calculus, can't do that without being at least adequate at mental multiplication (for calculating parameters in equations and understanding how they change without interrupting your train of thought every 3 seconds).

So yeah, I think you still need to grind these multiplication tables, even if you have perfect version of Wolphram Alpha on your smartphone. It won't tell you what question to ask.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by roceasta on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @01:19PM (#15177194)
Have you noticed that most adults don't know what nine times seven is? If you ask them on the street they'll mostly either get it wrong or tell you quite rudely to go away. This is despite (and because of) a decade of grind at school. Or have you noticed that people are unable to hold a conversation in a foreign language despite years of 'study' in a classroom? Whereas an enthusiastic individual can pick up basic conversation for themselves in a matter of months.

This is because coercion in education is: (1) painful, (2) prophetic, (3) it doesn't work!

What happens in real life is that if somebody needs to know something because they are keen to do something else then they will learn it efficiently, 'just in time' and precisely to the extent needed. Assuming their creativity is relatively intact...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by ajuc on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:39AM (#15184025)
Not really (but then I never asked random people to multiply for me :) ).

But I can kinda understand why, you almost never have to multiply 9*7 by hand. If you're doing algebra or any symbolic calculations you rarely use digits other than 0-4.

In real world Benford's law + usual rounding greatly reduces the need to multiply by 7 or 9 (or 8 for that matter).

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by jacobolus on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @06:17AM (#15173842)
> Learning the time tables for example - you just have to do lots of exercises to get used to multiplying. No way around that.

The way around is to just not do that.

Students get huge amounts of practice with basic multiplication if they are assigned more interesting problems/projects that use multiplication as one step, and will inevitably memorize all of the same basic facts, assuming they actually do the work.

Memorizing multiplication facts for their own sake is a soul-sucking waste of time that turns kids off from math for good.

Similarly, the way to get good at spelling is by reading engrossing books for hours every day and writing about subjects of personal interest. Studying lists of spelling words in school is beyond pointless.

These are not skills like sports or playing musical instruments, where there is a particular physical technique involving fine muscle coordination, where practicing incorrectly will establish wrong movements. Instead we’re talking about simple verbal/linguistic recall of previously seen information.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by Micoloth on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @04:29AM (#15173392)
Maybe they could present kids with timetable After showing them more variate and interesting concepts, so that at that point they have both the spark of interest and the maturity to understand multiplication is important and the attitude at learning that makes it not a torture.

I'm just making things up tho

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by thomastjeffery on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @11:59PM (#15181108)
> math is thought to be 'scary' and 'hard'

> Plenty of video games are known to be scary and hard

Those statements seem related because of the ambiguous definition of "scary". In relation to math, "scary" causes anxiety, whereas in relation to video games, "scary" causes excitement.

As soon as you grasp the different meanings, you can clearly see that even though both statements are about the same word they are still orthogonal.

Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by roceasta on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @01:22PM (#15286635)
Yes, it's complicated. Yet I don't think I committed an equivocation. As I said, what makes the difference is compulsion/coercion, which causes us to interpret scariness in one context as bad (e.g. falling off a ladder), and scariness in another as being good and part of the fun (e.g. skydiving).
Re:Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014) by odessacubbage on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @07:37AM (#15174170)
videogames also encourage a learning process based around experimentation and failure, both of which were highly discouraged during the course of my math education. effective learning is a process of repeated failure & incremental improvement that stands at odds with the present incentives in the american education system.