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Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by WillPostForFood on Friday September 01, 2017 @01:35PM (#15150633)
The Taxi medallion system is more exploitative of labor than Uber, forcing poor people to prepay for the right to work. It's as close to indentured servitude as you can get.
Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by rwmj on Friday September 01, 2017 @01:46PM (#15150732)
The medallion system seems to be a US peculiarity.

In the UK you have to also pay fees up front (and pass certain tests) but the fees are relatively modest[1] and the tests include things like knowledge, medical fitness and criminal records, which all seems reasonable. This legally applies to Uber drivers too, although whether it is enforced seems to be in doubt[2].

(I'm not talking about London black cabs which operate on a slightly different system)

[1] The fees for my local council are in section 10 here: http://www.dacorum.gov.uk/docs/default-source/licensing-docu...

[2] https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/uber-may-face-21m-...

Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by dmurray on Friday September 01, 2017 @03:52PM (#15151879)
> The medallion system seems to be a US peculiarity

The equivalent system existed in Ireland until 2000, with taxi licenses changing hands for over $100,000. I'd be surprised if this doesn't persist in other European countries and cities.

Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by Kankuro on Friday September 01, 2017 @04:43PM (#15152243)
In France, licenses have been given for free in limited numbers, and with the right to resell them on the market. So their price have increased up to 200-350k€. So some people made a lot of money there (and they one accept cash, so you know what can happen with the taxes). Recent buyers are in a bad position because they get it for a high price and now risk their value to drop because of the recent competition.
Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by zjaffee on Friday September 01, 2017 @08:00PM (#15153271)
The thing that OP is neglecting to mention about the medallion system is that it's purpose was to limit the number of cars on the road at any given time, which eventually turned into a cartel like market because there was a higher demand for medallions than was decided upon for how many taxis should be on the road to reduce congestion and the number of cars within cities.

In places with good public transit, this resulted in people using public transit to get home when taxis weren't available, now everyone just takes an uber/lyft. Additionally, this also hurts the speed at which busses can travel. However, now you see places like manhattan have far more cars on the road at any given time than before considering the taxis never left, and the number of cars went up to meet demand.

Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by icebraining on Saturday September 02, 2017 @09:02AM (#15155760)
eventually turned into a cartel

It was always so. The medallion system was imposed after taxi drivers rioted, set stuff on fire and attacked the police, since they disliked the competition from unemployed people who tried to make a living during the Great Depression.

"Striking taxi drivers was nothing new–the first strike took place in 1908, a year after the first taxi company was founded. But this strike had a hostile energy to it, as strikers went hunting for scabs to punish. As one driver put it, “the bastids that was scabbin’, we pulled the doors off their cabs.” Independent cab owners, who had nothing to gain by striking, had their windows smashed by blocks of ice and passengers thrown from their cabs. Police who tried restore order had their tires slashed and marbles thrown under their horses. By February 5, angry crowds of driving were brawling in the street with the police and torching independent cab cars."

Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by ralmeida on Friday September 01, 2017 @06:04PM (#15152733)
Not sure how the values for a taxi license compare to a NYC "medallion", but Brazil does have expensive licenses as well. Anecdotally, most taxi drivers I've met rent the vehicle from someone else (don't have hard data on that right now, though).
Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by chx on Friday September 01, 2017 @01:54PM (#15150828)
Uber got closer. They give you a subprime mortgage on your car where the payment comes out of your Uber fees and if you are behind, a remote inhibitor does not allow starting the car.
Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by ralmeida on Friday September 01, 2017 @06:07PM (#15152752)
But then at least you build equity on the car, right? Also, if you already own a suitable vehicle (which is arguably easier than owning a medallion), you wouldn't need the mortgage?
Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by chx on Sunday September 03, 2017 @01:43AM (#15159880)
The medallion was a safe investment until Uber broke the law and got away with it.

It makes no sense to "build equity" in a car since the car is depreciating very fast especially if you use it a lot for example because you are driving it to serve your debt to Uber.

Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by ralmeida on Monday September 04, 2017 @08:40AM (#15167814)
It doesn't matter whether the medallion is a safe investment or not. Wikipedia tells me a NYC medallion was worth around 500k in late 2016. Median household income in NYC is around 50k, so that's 10 whole years of gross salary.

The truth is that the average person is not able to afford to drive a taxi without renting the medallion. Even building equity on a quickly depreciating asset such as a car used for Uber is better in terms of not having to pay to work.

Also, a Uber loan would not be the only way to get a car to drive for Uber. Even if you have no means to finance the car for yourself, many more people own a Uber-suitable car than a taxi medallion, so the price you'd have to pay to work for Uber would in any case be lower.

The original discussion was whether Uber or taxis would be more worker-restrictive. I don't think driving a Uber gives total freedom, but I fail to see how driving a taxi is any better for the worker.

Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by evanlivingston on Friday September 01, 2017 @01:42PM (#15150692)
That doesn't provide an argument for choosing the lesser of two exploitative systems.
Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by WillPostForFood on Friday September 01, 2017 @01:50PM (#15150780)
I don't think Uber is a good company, but I also don't think they are exploiting drivers. Even if you do, it is less exploitative than trapping drivers into a system by forcing them to prepay for the right to drive. Choose whichever you think is less exploitive when you need a ride, but don't pretend taxis are some noble system.
Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by goialoq on Friday September 01, 2017 @01:54PM (#15150830)
Less exploitative is clearly better. If you don't like Uber, make something better or lobby for Uber to change, but don't wish for things to go back to how they were worse.
Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by s17n on Friday September 01, 2017 @01:41PM (#15150680)
Definitely true in NYC but Uber is global, in places like France they are lowering the bar for drivers' working conditions.
Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by corford on Friday September 01, 2017 @06:27PM (#15152839)
In Lisbon, Portugal it's like NYC. Any expat or local will tell you that they feel infinitely safer and more comfortable in an Uber than they do in a normal taxi.
Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by vasilipupkin on Friday September 01, 2017 @03:12PM (#15151578)
Eehh, care to explain ? I just came back from Paris and I used Uber multiple times a day while there, including to go to the airport. It was very convenient. My drivers didn't seem unhappy to be there. So, what's the problem ?
Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by Kankuro on Friday September 01, 2017 @04:44PM (#15152253)
> My drivers didn't seem unhappy to be there

If they look unhappy, maybe the customer will give them bad ratings for bad customer experience…

Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by enraged_camel on Friday September 01, 2017 @01:38PM (#15150652)
Those are two extraordinary claims. Let's see some equally extraordinary evidence.
Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by WillPostForFood on Friday September 01, 2017 @01:45PM (#15150723)
It's how the medallion system works, you prepay for the right to work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_New_York_City#Meda...

Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by sjg007 on Friday September 01, 2017 @02:08PM (#15150975)
So do strippers? And hairstylists? It's rent?
Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by cableshaft on Friday September 01, 2017 @02:18PM (#15151071)
My understanding of those professions (strippers, hairstylists, etc) is they pay the business they work at up front for the night (or maybe week or month) and are expecting to make their money back and then some by the end of that short period of time.

Taxi Medallions are different, especially in large cities. They can cost $300,000 to $1,000,000+, upfront. Most taxi cab drivers have to take out a loan or lease the medallions in order to pay for it, and then they're beholden to the loaner for a long, long time.

This is why taxi cab drivers HATED when Uber starting taking away their business and didn't just shrug their shoulders, buy a black car, and join Uber. They are pretty much stuck and can't easily get out of it.

That's completely different than these other professions where if something isn't working out, you can switch which place you go to or try something else next week or next month.

Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by sjg007 on Friday September 01, 2017 @04:37PM (#15152194)
Most cab drivers lease the medallion from the medallion holder typically (including the car).. so it's the same. The medallion holder has no incentive to drive if they can rent out the right to drive. That was the game until uber. Uber could and probably will just buy all the medallions. Or if not necessary the medallions will just be effectively worthless.
Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by WillPostForFood on Friday September 01, 2017 @02:19PM (#15151079)
I'd put licensing fees for hairstylists in the same category, but it is the large price of medallions (hundreds of thousands to over a million dollars), and the long term commitment that creates that draws the analogy to indentured servitude. Along with the fact that medallions are government mandated and controlled. At least a hairdresser trying to rent a chair might have options to find other places, or even open their own shop.
Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by enraged_camel on Friday September 01, 2017 @01:54PM (#15150837)
That's true, but that doesn't make it indentured servitude, or even close to it.

Medallions exist to keep the supply of taxis limited. It ensures cab drivers have a certain standard of living. They can also be sold, so if the driver is retiring or wants to change to another career, they can do that.

It's not a perfect system but it strikes a decent balance between worker protection and limiting externalities (e.g. by making sure not everyone decides to become a cab driver and clog up roads).

edit: I guess Uber shills are out in force today.

Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by sctb on Saturday September 02, 2017 @03:27PM (#15157758)
Could you please stop violating the guidelines, which ask you not to complain about voting or insinuate shillage?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by fragmede on Friday September 01, 2017 @03:54PM (#15151890)
> It's not a perfect system

I mean, slavery could also be described as "not a perfect system". Medallions in NYC had wholly undergone regulatory capture, so while the system may have started with good intentions, it had since been perverted into a self-perpetuating machine that prints money for a couple of lazy fat cats, to the detriment of everyone else.

Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by enraged_camel on Friday September 01, 2017 @06:55PM (#15152956)
>>I mean, slavery could also be described as "not a perfect system".

Medallion system is nothing like slavery. False equivalence.

>>it had since been perverted into a self-perpetuating machine that prints money for a couple of lazy fat cats, to the detriment of everyone else.

The medallion system benefits citizens because it ensures that taxis don't dominate city streets at the expense of regular car owners.

Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by kazinator on Friday September 01, 2017 @02:09PM (#15150991)
University degrees are also a system by which, effectively, people (some of whom are poor) prepay for the right to work.
Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by Waterluvian on Friday September 01, 2017 @02:18PM (#15151072)
You definitely need a medallion if you want to be a taxi driver.

But the medallion isn't an indicator that you're an expert professional driver. So it's different than, say, an M.D. or a law degree that are required because those things are difficult and the public needs protection from frauds.

Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by kazinator on Friday September 01, 2017 @03:01PM (#15151494)
Some degrees are "worthless", yet are needed as a document to tick off on a list of job requirements.

Of course, the analogy is far from perfect; in fact, I didn't really intend an analogy, as such.

A degree obviously isn't a license token you can move from one person to another, like the taxi medallion.

Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by bsder on Friday September 01, 2017 @02:03PM (#15150930)
The taxi medallion system was put in place precisely to avoid the inherent race to the bottom that is caused by a low barrier to entry (just need a car to be a taxi) and a fixed consumer base (limited number of passengers).

That is not fiction or speculation--it is history. You can look up the problems New York had before the taxi medallion system.

I am by no means defending the taxi system. It was rife with problems (especially outside the very biggest cities): unreliable pickups, long wait times outside of a very small number of areas, not wanting to take credit cards, bad driving routes to overcharge, and a whole litany of other complaints.

The only reason why the whole system hasn't devolved into a free-for-all is that Uber and Lyft have so much VC money subsidizing ride cost that nobody can get under their prices--they are below the bottom.

The real competitor to Uber/Lyft is the company who can take the existing cabs and cab companies and insert them into an app that does real-time bidding on their end and works like Uber/Lyft from the consumer end. Austin, TX showed that once Uber and Lyft quit sucking the oxygen out of the space, competition and new options start opening up.

However, Uber and Lyft will have to both implode first. And the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.

Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by wlesieutre on Friday September 01, 2017 @02:13PM (#15151029)
FWIW I tried to use RideAustin when I was there a few months ago and couldn't even get signed in to the app. Ended up using Uber instead.
Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by bsder on Friday September 01, 2017 @02:28PM (#15151180)
Well, once Uber and Lyft came back, the alternatives all basically fizzled out. It's kind of hard to compete against VC subsidized rides.

The telling thing to me is that Uber and Lyft came back to Austin with no concessions after throwing a hissy fit and leaving. That tells me that they saw something that scared them and they needed to squelch it before it escaped to other cities.

Edit: I stand corrected. The state legislature overrode the Austin laws. (Side: Wish I could put an overstrike through my comment.)

Make no mistake, this is 1990's Microsoft levels of predatory behavior. It is nothing to be praised.

Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by wlesieutre on Friday September 01, 2017 @02:33PM (#15151226)
The reason they left was Austin saying "You need to fingerprint all potential drivers and run them through an FBI fingerprint database."

They came back when legislature said "Actually you don't need to do that."

I'd hardly characterize it as a hissy fit.

Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by fragmede on Friday September 01, 2017 @03:39PM (#15151774)
City of Austin: "You need to fingerprint all potential drivers and run them through an FBI fingerprint database."

Uber: I don't wanna do that! Uber: stomps feet Uber: goes home Uber: Bribes Texas state into passing laws to force Austin to accept them.

Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by jsjohnst on Friday September 01, 2017 @05:56PM (#15152689)
While I am usually an outspoken critic of Uber, I feel this is an unfair portrayal of that situation. If I owned a ride hailing service, I would protest the same law.
Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by bb611 on Friday September 01, 2017 @02:39PM (#15151298)
Both services return were widely predicted here even before they left. It wasn't a hissy fit, it was a calculated move to reduce business costs, and it worked better than I think they even expected.
Re:Read This Before You Build Uber for X by tim333 on Friday September 01, 2017 @07:44PM (#15153193)
Probably the biggest problem with no medallion regular taxis is you can end up with dozens of them trying to pick up a small number of passengers and cluttering the streets and causing congestion. With Uber you don't get that - they seem to drop the prices to regulate the number of cabs instead.