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Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by TACIXAT on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @02:43PM (#15126618)
It seems really disingenuous to talk about market caps in cryptocurrencies. The US dollar doesn't have a market cap. No currency does. Market cap is the markets valuation of a company. The term is used to contrast it against their actual valuation. The use in crypto is just a mechanism to dress them up like stocks.

If you call these currencies, then you need to recognize that they are extremely deflationary and will never be used as fiat currencies are. If you call them speculative investments, you need to realize they're not backed by any actual value.

I haven't done a deep dive on Ethereum yet, so this is mostly addressing Bitcoin and all its derivatives.

Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by noddy1 on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @03:26PM (#15126912)
> If you call these currencies, then you need to recognize > that they are extremely deflationary and will never be used as > fiat currencies are.

For me, one of the best things about bitcoin is that it is actually going allow a lot of arrogant economic dogma to finally be put to the test, including that:

- currencies must be inflationary or the universe will explode and people will save so aggressively that they will die of hunger

- printing free money and giving it to rich banks is a good thing and doesn't totally fuck the little guy

- monetary stimulus smooths out economic cycles, and totally isn't part of the cause of the ridiculous boom-bust cycles we are having now

Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by TACIXAT on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @04:48PM (#15127481)
You need some semblance of stability though. No one is going to agree to pay me 1 BTC per week if they're implicitly giving me a 30% raise in week 2. Just the same, I would not be happy to get paid in an extremely inflationary currency that meant I was taking a pay cut week over week.

It has not shattered any belief in traditional currencies or governments for me. In fact, it has made me realize their value. People are just using it for speculation which makes it feel a lot more like a multi-level marketing scheme than a currency.

Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by dfhdf5 on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @05:27PM (#15127742)
A currency which has gone from not existing 10 years ago to potentially being a world reserve currency is alway going to be ridiculously volatile as that transformation occurs.

Volatility is reducing however. As the scale increases and the exact role that a currency will end up playing in the world becomes clear, so does its market cap. Amazon or google will never rapidly grow 100x in a few years again, and whichever crypto becomes the world reserve will have the same reduction in volatility as it scales.

Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by sbenitoj on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @06:41PM (#15128226)
It has not shattered any belief in traditional currencies YET -- give it a few more decades and a few more financial crises caused by incessant money printing and fake credit expansion and I suspect things will look quite different.
Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by sbenitoj on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @05:24PM (#15127722)
People are using it for a lot more than speculation, including skirting capital controls imposed by crony bureacrats, buying goods and services that are "morally unacceptable" to puritanical politicians, and as a means of savings in countries where confiscating bank deposits is matter of course.
Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by cgmg on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @05:12PM (#15127640)
How does speculation make something a "multi-level marketing scheme"?
Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by TACIXAT on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @05:28PM (#15127752)
First, I should clear up some terms. I say speculation as a contrast to investing. Investing is when you have an understanding of something underlying value (or expected value) based on some financial fact (e.g. past profits). Speculation is when you purchase something and hope for it to go up in value.

I see cryptocurrency prices largely driven by speculation. There is no underlying value that justifies the price. This means that the people purchasing cryptocurrencies today are relying on someone else purchasing it at a higher price tomorrow in order to make a profit. I might have used the term MLM incorrectly when what I meant was pyramid scheme.

Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by cgmg on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @09:59PM (#15129170)
> I might have used the term MLM incorrectly when what I meant was pyramid scheme.

You are now using the term 'pyramid scheme' incorrectly.

Out of curiosity, do you consider other objects of speculation, including stocks, bonds, futures, derivatives, commodities and real estate, to be 'pyramid schemes'?

Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by sbenitoj on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @06:44PM (#15128238)
Isn't it possible that people are using cryptocurrencies as an alternative to restrictive fiat currencies and not just for speculative purposes?

(Obviously people are also using them for speculation, but that doesn't mean that's the ONLY current use case.)

Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by aoeuasdf1 on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @04:10PM (#15127230)
Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by mathgenius on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @03:39PM (#15127009)
> economic dogma

Let's not forget this one:

- regulating the exchanges aids in price discovery

Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by eternalvision on Thursday August 31, 2017 @09:43PM (#15145513)
For the second point, I disagree. Rich banks are accumulating enough cryptocurrency to be a major player going forward.
Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by sbenitoj on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @05:20PM (#15127696)
This, 1,000x this.

From your comment I assume you're already familiar with the Mises Institute and the Austrian Business Cycle Theory?

Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by pdkl95 on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @05:10PM (#15127628)
> currencies must be inflationary or the universe will explode and people will save so aggressively that they will die of hunger

That's not the (primary) problem with deflationary currencies. Say you're a typical citizen with at most a median income ($56,516, according to [1]). With that level of income, important purchases such as a (used) car, a post-secondary education, an unfortunate medical emergency, or any other large expense is usually going to require taking more than a trivial amount of debt[2].

Debt denominated in a deflating currency is effectively has a rising interest rate. Ideas about "aggressive saving" only make sense if have the ability to save. Since 3/4 (75%) of workers live paycheck to paycheck and 71% of those workers are in debt[4], a deflationary would directly increase most people's debt and effectively be a type of institutionalized usury.

> printing free money and giving it to rich banks is a good thing and doesn't totally fuck the little guy

Of course that's bad. Giving money to banks is one of the worst ways to run a "bailout". If you simply handed the money to citizens, a vast majority (that live paycheck to paycheck[4]) would spend it as normal players in the economy. The money would at least get a trip through the economy doing useful things before it ended up back in usual places money accumulates.

> monetary stimulus smooths out economic cycles ...

As for why any bailout might be necessary, in a perfect world it shouldn't be. However, in our imperfect reality we occasionally run into the fallacy of composition. Austerity tactics are often rational at the individual level, but we all do it at the same time we call it a slowing economy and a smaller GDP. A bailout is a workaround to fix that deadlock; it's bad, but it's probably better than a crashing GDP and a failing economy. The real fix would be some sort of policy or regulation that prevented the deadlock. Good luck on that part; it's a particularly difficult problem with a a lot of noise, complexity, and it's full of occasionally-rational participants - some of which are malicious.

> arrogant economic dogma

The arrogant dogma in economics is the notion that it is reducible to math[5][6].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Household_income_...

[2] The current gap between real incomes and productivity[3] - and the increased availability and use of debt to (poorly) make up the difference - has the dual effect of making the use of debt much more likely and the size of the debt larger. However, the need for debt will still be common for most people regardless of our current situation.

[3] https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Product...

[4] https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/24/most-americans-live-paycheck...

[5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmWbkPezgtU

[6] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5AUAIzciLE#t=1355

Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by pja on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @02:46PM (#15126635)
Ethereum is BTC with an even greater wealth transfer to early adopters built-in in the form of the switch from proof-of-work to proof-of-stake. What's the acceptable stake? Ether. How do you get Ether? You're going to have to buy it off the early adopters who mined it.

IOW, the Ether guys thought that Satoshi was a chump who left too much value on the table.

Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by uncoder0 on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @03:01PM (#15126752)
In the bitcointalk forums they have a special name for these sort of coins... 'pre-mined shitcoins'

The whole PoS swap makes that even more apparent in Ether's case. I mean hell they hardforked because some rich friends on the dev team got 'hacked' by a poorly written smart contract.

Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by rfugger on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @03:52PM (#15127107)
The other side of the coin is that Ethereum has a well-funded foundation behind its software and business development, making it easier for established companies to interface with on various levels...
Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by mrfusion on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @03:27PM (#15126916)
Explain like I'm from 2010? ( and what/when is a proof of stake swap?)
Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by raisedbyninjas on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @04:17PM (#15127272)
Proof of stake mints new coins based on who already has coins (they have a stake in the platform's success). This is opposed to solving arbitrary math problems to mint new coins, which is called "proof of work". At some point in the future the Ethereum client will have the proof of work algo swapped out with the proof of stake algo.
Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by kgwgk on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @03:08PM (#15126799)
Money does have indeed some kind of market cap (there are multiple definitions depending on what do we want to count as money): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply
Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by wcoenen on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @03:10PM (#15126815)
I think it is still a more useful metric than price. If you consider a cryptocurrency with a price of $1/unit, it still matters a lot whether there are 1 million or 1 billion units in circulation. Multiplying price with the number of units takes this into account.

I agree that "market cap" is a bit misleading. What would be a better name?

Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by aml183 on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @04:11PM (#15127233)
Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by sputknick on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @02:46PM (#15126642)
This is a valid point, one counter point is that currently the law treats cryptocurrencies like assets, and we usually track our assets in terms of dollars.
Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by tristram_shandy on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @03:31PM (#15126963)
Market capitalization is simply units * price. It has nothing to do with companies (or stocks), specifically: market cap is a simple formula that provides the total valuation of a commodity.

Frankly, it's a misnomer to refer to Ethereum (and certain others) as being currencies in the first place. The newer, functional cryptos have much more in common with barrels of oil or bushels of wheat than with traditional money

Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by steveplace on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @03:15PM (#15126841)
Maybe dollar weighted volume would be a better comparison.
Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by sbenitoj on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @04:42PM (#15127451)
What do you believe fiat currencies are backed by?
Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by TACIXAT on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @05:00PM (#15127565)
Taxes, primarily. Everyone needs to pay taxes and they need to pay taxes in their national currency (see: Modern Monetary Theory). This makes everyone seek out their national currency. Additionally, countries have a very different goal when creating money than miners do. Miners are profit driven and countries are interested in continuity and stability. You could also consider the GDP of a country as a backing for its currency, this demonstrates the currency is being used and the backing entity will remain solvent. The only thing cryptocurrencies are used for is speculation and buying drugs online, in all other cases they simply act as a pass-through for transactions in fiat.
Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by sbenitoj on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @06:30PM (#15128178)
Well, its certainly a common belief that the requirement to pay taxes in the national currency gives a national currency its value, but the hyperinflationary events in Zimbabwe and the Weimar Republic (and the subsequent worthlessness of those national currencies) demonstrate that this requirement is insufficient to give currencies their value.

In fact, the only thing that gives currencies their value is people's belief that they have value (much like gold before national currencies).

I'd also like to add that "countries" dont have goals, countries are made up of people, and only people have goals -- and all people are self-interested. The people in control of monetary policy are just as self-interested as the miners are, instead of receiving profit directly like the miners they inflate currencies to the benefit of major banks in their countries (and subsequently get highly paid jobs at those banks or elsewhere in the finance industry).

Re:Ethereum Price Climbs to $360; Crypto Market Cap Pierces ... by colorint on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @06:03PM (#15128001)
The "solvency" of a government (that issues its own currency and only issues debt in that currency) is the same thing as its credibility. Or to tie it to what you said, a government is exactly as solvent as its ability to collect taxes.