News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by tomp on Sunday August 27, 2017 @04:30AM (#15109735)
As someone else, I'd gladly ruin advertising and all businesses that rely on it; it's immoral (involuntary invasion of other people's minds) and a terrible business model and should die ASAP.

Edit: most ad-blockers don't actually block ads; they just block cross-domain, spying widgets. Nothing is preventing you from showing a self-hosted, untracked image that's actually an ad. The fact that you complain about adblockers implies that you don't do that, which implies that you're using bad practices (e.g. spying on users).

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by convery on Sunday August 27, 2017 @04:39AM (#15109761)
> Nothing is preventing you from showing a self-hosted, untracked image that's actually an ad.

Which is largely impossible for smaller sites. If you contact companies directly and ask if they'd like to advertise (or just have a contact page) they expect you to have millions of daily users. Not to mention that you have to build systems to track how many times the banner is shown to the users and have some way to verify this (e.g. that they are not bots/crawlers).

Saying; "just host your own ads" is a lot similar to "if you don't like the software, just make your own from scratch". It's not that easy for most people.

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by gfody on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:17AM (#15109894)
this is the real shame. people don't block ads because they can't stand the site of them. it's because the whole ad infrastructure is so janky that it makes the browsing experience glitchy and unstable. nobody wants cookie stuffing popunder free download now buttons on their site but ad providers don't really give much in the way of being able to selectively filter those out.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by featherverse on Sunday August 27, 2017 @02:09PM (#15111876)
> people don't block ads because they can't stand the site of them.

Oh yeah? Where do you get your research from?

I guarantee people are blocking ads because they hate ads and everything else is secondary.

You want some proof? TIVO sold millions of devices because of the ability to skip ads. People hate ads.

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by gfody on Sunday August 27, 2017 @08:07PM (#15113559)
there's a big difference between a tv commercial and a banner ad. one completely hijacks your attention for some period and the other is more like a billboard or poster - if you're not interested you don't have to pay attention to it.

I know some sites have taken to showing full screen overlays and that's a lot more like a tv commercial, which I agree people hate. but for the most part we're talking about banners and their corresponding infrastructure for tracking and targeting (which is more intrusive than the actual ad mist of the time).

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by featherverse on Monday August 28, 2017 @03:38AM (#15115014)
This response will be lengthy, it's a complicated subject.

I disagree. Most banner ads are through some sort of service like AdSense. They don't fit the theme of the page they're on most of the time which harms the immersive experience for the end user.

People care about these details. AdBlockers are increasing in popularity every year and there are reasons for that, you can't simply disregard this fact.

There are rare sites where ads are less hated, a good example might be Penny Arcade where the ads are hand-picked by the site owners for their specific appeal to their targeted audience. Those kinds of ads are probably the least hated.

I've had this conversation dozens of times, and people are constantly insisting that advertising is going to live forever! But that's nonsense. People hate ads. Even the least intrusive ads, they hate them on principal because their lives have been ruled by ads for decades. And films like Minority Report have painted horrifying visions of the future where advertising has taken over everything. The savvy among us can see that "big data" trends are heading in that direction, and that isn't a future anyone wants. Except people who work in advertising.

What I am curious about is why people cling so desperately to this revenue model. Obviously those who rely on it for their bread and butter are going to wish it would live forever, but the other 90% of the population would realize a much better quality of life if advertisements were to die forever. Just imagine it.

The internet and digital technology is changing the world. Advertising is going to die. It's an exciting thing to bear witness to.

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by jdangu on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:55AM (#15110030)
We're doing exactly that at my startup Confiant [1], blocking bad ads in stream on behalf of publishers. High quality content websites don't want to ruin UX with bad ads.

[1] https://www.confiant.com

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by gfody on Sunday August 27, 2017 @06:45AM (#15110161)
cool startup! do you do anything about the infrastructure though? I mean a regular old banner image is OK, but the same image delivered via the series of scripts all tracking, sniffing, and profiling with all the cookie stuffing and who knows what else black magic bullshit is in those adtech js really screws with the browsing experience. uMatrix doesn't just hide ads - it blocks the ad tech entirely which ends up improving the whole experience by making the site load faster, use less ram, not spin up my fans and heat up the battery, etc.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by jdangu on Sunday August 27, 2017 @06:11PM (#15113105)
yup, we detect and block most sleazy ad tech schemes through the daisy-chain of third parties. Agreed on UX improvement with ad blockers, we're doing this selectively on behalf of publishers.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by wott on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:46AM (#15109994)
> people don't block ads because they can't stand the site of them.

That's cute :-)

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by icebraining on Sunday August 27, 2017 @04:55AM (#15109812)
Right, but it won't be impossible when the alternative is not advertising at all in millions of sites.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by manquer on Sunday August 27, 2017 @11:50AM (#15111239)
Each site owner need not do it on his own . Perhaps there is an opportunity for an open source ad hosting solution which has all the features and connect to one or more central marketplaces where advertisers can place bids and also each ad can have be rated basis user responses and feedback and you can configure which marketplaces to list and restrict the quality of ads and the kind of tracking
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by tomp on Sunday August 27, 2017 @04:43AM (#15109777)
Most sites have tracking via GA as well, why not just show advertisers that, and let them buy e.g. 1/3 of the monthly traffic? AFAIK most ad-blockers don't block GA (though other plugins do).

Edit: Ah, I just checked, uBlock apparently blocks GA whereas AdBlock doesn't.

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by LeoNatan25 on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:35AM (#15109947)
If you add any privacy related list to any blocker, GA is blocked, thankfully.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by takeda on Sunday August 27, 2017 @11:53AM (#15111252)
AdBlock now allows ads and trackers from companies that satisfy their proper ad criteria. One of the criteria is also a payment that depends on the size of your company.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by Semaphor on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:04AM (#15109835)
The majority of our companies income comes from Amazon affiliate sales. We have our own widget, backend pulls the information from Amazon via their API, front end shows the products (we have a lot of structured data, so we know which products are actually relevant to show and don't have to rely on Amazon). No adblocker blocks this and it pulls no external resources besides the product image from amazon.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by gfody on Sunday August 27, 2017 @06:57AM (#15110199)
you're doing it right. what's needed is tooling that allows other publishers to do this for basic ads.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by zdkl on Sunday August 27, 2017 @04:36AM (#15109754)
I dislike advertising too and would gladly see it and the related industry burn in a fire but it's neither immoral or a terrible business model.

Many business benefit greatly from some amount of advertisement and it's a practical way to monetise people's attention. What is immoral is the cohort of brilliant minds who've made the optimisation of advertisement the quest of the century.

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by LukaD on Sunday August 27, 2017 @04:48AM (#15109791)
So there is nothing wrong with involuntary invasion of other people's minds?
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by convery on Sunday August 27, 2017 @04:55AM (#15109810)
I love how you people always find new ways of wording shit to gain some moral superiority. Can't wait for the logical conclusion, "Netflix's servers are heating up the planet while processing my request; I DO NOT CONSENT TO THIS!! Thus my piracy is for the good of the land".
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by icebraining on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:05AM (#15109840)
If sites warned that they will load trackers beforehand, your accusation would make sense: people could just not enter the site.

But as it stands, even if you're willing to forgo using such sites, you have to load trackers to know that the site uses them. So an adblocker/anti-tracker is a necessary protection.

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by wott on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:54AM (#15110024)
> wording shit

The head of the first French TV channel himself bragged that "his job was to sell available brain time".

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by yew on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:37AM (#15109960)
The only thing you'll achieve with that attitude is convincing people that there's no point in slowing down or talking things over.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by LukaD on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:08AM (#15109848)
You got me. Gaining moral superiority is what I was after.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by zdkl on Sunday August 27, 2017 @07:45AM (#15110333)
Well so far I've lived fairly well, being "involuntarily invaded" by art for instance, so I'm not sure I see merit in the invasion argument.

On the the other hand if you're complaining about the shady manipulations going on behind the scenes to fuel the data driven marketing and advertising schemes then sure you have a point.

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by wyager on Sunday August 27, 2017 @09:49AM (#15110768)
You consent to go to the website that has ads on it.

On the other hand, you don't consent to seeing a billboard whilst on public roads, so I don't think I'd object to people "defending themselves" (whatever that looks like) from billboards.

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by tannhaeuser on Sunday August 27, 2017 @04:55AM (#15109809)
I'm hearing this moralistic (and naive IMHO) argument a lot lately. Do you rather want to read targetted (advertisement-in-disguise and mass-scale political campaigning aka fake news) content instead? Please don't rant against "evil ads" like that; rather, think about an economically feasible model which allows content creation and the web to thrive.

The problem with ads, and the sole reason I'm personally using an ad blocker, is tracking. For me, mass surveillance isn't an adequate compromise to make for free content.

I don't have a problem at all with classic banner ads OTOH. By merely switching off JavaScript you used to able to switch off most tracking years ago. But today's web pretty much requires JavaScript for even the simplest interactivity. Thank you W3C and WHATWG and Google for HTML5's lameness.

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by ACow_Adonis on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:49AM (#15110004)
I think the "do you want hidden ads instead?" is a bit naive as well, to be perfectly honest.

It misunderstands the nature of advertising and advertisers.

The kind of person/organisation who will target you with fake news and paid-for or ghost-written articles or books (which incidentally, is an increasingly large number of popular publications already these days) is not the kind of entity that says "oh, well i've got banner ads, best hold-back now in the interest of good-faith relations".

Advertising does not voluntarily stop. Advertisers do not hold back in the name of decency. It generally expands until it is either stopped (through legislative and societal bans, not having the rights to advertise in a particular place, or until it is cost-prohibitive to do so) or until the eyeballs stop looking (either because it has lost power or become so obtrusive that people either block it, turn to substitutes, turn off or push back).

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by icebraining on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:00AM (#15109824)
Do you rather want to read targetted (advertisement-in-disguise and mass-scale political campaigning aka fake news) content instead?

As if we didn't have that already?

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by Sir_Substance on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:38AM (#15109970)
>I'm hearing this moralistic (and naive IMHO) argument a lot lately. Do you rather want to read targetted (advertisement-in-disguise and mass-scale political campaigning aka fake news) content instead?

We already have that buddy. One problem at a time.

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by DarkCrusader2 on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:14AM (#15109874)
One thing I wanted to do was to allow ads everywhere and only block ones with obtrusive ads. That is instead of whitelisting good ones, I would have to only blacklist bad ones. But could find out how to do that with uBlock. Maybe somebody here can help.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by KGIII on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:35AM (#15109945)
You can try uMatrix. Same author. Adjust the defaults. There is a learning curve.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by jasonkostempski on Sunday August 27, 2017 @08:38AM (#15110519)
Do you not count tracking as obtrusive?
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by mess110 on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:28AM (#15109925)
Lets see if Basic-Attention-Token works
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by Sir_Substance on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:39AM (#15109974)
It won't. Most people don't want their attention monetized.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by Zarath on Sunday August 27, 2017 @06:07AM (#15110054)
Most people don't know that it already is and has been for a very long time.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by Sir_Substance on Sunday August 27, 2017 @06:36AM (#15110129)
And as they get wise, they increasingly install ad blockers. That's going to the moon at the moment. Tools like Ad Nausium are the next logical step.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by tomp on Sunday August 27, 2017 @01:45PM (#15111756)
How will they tackle abuse (hackers running bots and "mining attention")?
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by dreamcompiler on Sunday August 27, 2017 @10:44AM (#15110975)
> Thank you W3C and WHATWG and Google for HTML5's lameness.

Is HTML5 lame, or are web developers just too lazy to learn to use it properly?

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by peddamat on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:07AM (#15109845)
If the current generation of ad technologies ever get completely blocked, alternate technologies will emerge for companies to recreate a dark version of ad networks, sharing web server logs, etc.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by endymi0n on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:20AM (#15109899)
Not only that, but like the "War on Drugs" is doomed to fail, so is the "war on Ads" - or any other market in which there is significant demand.

Companies need to advertise. If they don't sell their products, they go to die.

Here's some real world impact of Adblockers: Advertorials, Fake Reviews, increasily covert forum spam and Influencer Marketing. Not to mention increasing hard work of PR agencies chiseling away at reputable sources like Wikipedia. I basically can't trust anyone on the internet anymore - and this trend will only accelerate if companies can't reach interested prospects via clearly marked ad slots anymore.

All this advertising need and money isn't going away over night if banner ads are finally gotten rid of: it will simply go somewhere else.

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by ACow_Adonis on Sunday August 27, 2017 @06:08AM (#15110057)
You're right in that the "War on Ads" is an unwinnable war. But I think its more analogous to cleaning your house, or good hygiene. Its true that its a just a matter of time until your house, or yourself, will become dirty again if you don't do anything. But I don't think that's really an argument against cleaning.

Rather, its just the reality that you're never going to get down to zero.

But maybe if we put up enough of our own barriers, then our families can live in an environment with 10% of advertising influence and exposure instead of 60% or 80%. And i think that's a fight worth fighting.

I might not be able to get rid of advertising, but I can block ads, I can stop billboards going up, I can stop them advertising cigarettes/alcohol or gambling in certain times and places, and I can never let the tv shows or ghost-written books into my house. And overall, I think we'll live in a better world overall if people make the effort. Its the good fight.

As for ad-blockers being responsible for advertorials, fake reviews, forum spam and influencer marketing...lets just say it takes a massive leap of logic to turn a problem solely due to the behaviours of advertisers and try to level that at the feet of people trying to stop them. Wow.

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by jbreckmckye on Monday August 28, 2017 @04:25AM (#15115195)
It doesn't take a leap of logic at all. All it requires is some fairly simple economics.

Someone has to pay for content. You don't view ads, and you don't buy subscriptions. You also never donate. What do you think will happen next?

Well, some businesses die, but most don't. At the Guardian, we had to rely on three things:

1. We had to make about three hundred people redundant. (This is the human cost of the problem - not that some fatcat makes marginally worse dividends, but that a print worker who's done this job since 16 is now being turned out at 42)

2. We had to diversify our revenue streams. One way became 'native advertising': content sponsored by companies, like an article on the history of whiskey with a Jack Daniels badge, etc. Editorial hated this. Oh, boy, they objected. They fought in every principle and at every point available. They relented when they realized they were next for redundancies.

3. Then there were us, in commercial. Firefighting bad ads coming via the network, trying to resist JS hogging full page experiences, writing ads in the highest performing fashion we could to make the best of a bad situation. No-one liked us.

I didn't stay for long. I'd like to say I left because I was disgusted with the seediness of the ad industry, but the real reason was that the job was boring and depressing. We weren't saving the newspaper and we weren't making ads better.

Personally I think the only solution is the paywall. That's how newspapers worked for 250 years: you gave your dollar and you got your daily edition. You could trust your paper because it was more beholden to you than to any other interest. Will people accept this, though?

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by gaius on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:28AM (#15109927)
Companies need to advertise. If they don't sell their products, they go to die.

Nonsense. If I or anyone NEEDS a product or service, we'll happily go out and buy it. Ads exist purely to drive unnecessary consumption-for-the-sake-of-consumption. It's telling that even a generally capitalist, free-market demographic like HN's thinks they are a sleazy way to make money. It's not a "war on drugs" its more like a war on some disease - and those are very winnable.

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by joshuamorton on Sunday August 27, 2017 @12:38PM (#15111478)
This is naive. How will you know what product to buy? And I mean this quite seriously. Where I work, there are initiatives to internally advertise tools and libraries that exist so people don't go reinventing them. For certain niches, it's not clear that a product exists unless you've seen it before.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by gaius on Sunday August 27, 2017 @01:49PM (#15111777)
This is naive. How will you know what product to buy?

This is naive. Advertisers aren't in the business of educating and informing the public. If they were most of them would say don't buy our product, you don't need it, it won't make you happy, the paid celebrity/model in our ad doesn't even use it, the people who make it don't even use it, because they know what's in it.

Like, do you think the executives at McDonalds feed their kids Happy Meals every day?

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by JetSpiegel on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:48AM (#15109999)
> Here's some real world impact of Adblockers: Advertorials, Fake Reviews, increasily covert forum spam and Influencer Marketing.

This has existed before ad-blockers and would continue to exist even if all ad-blockers disappeared overnight.

Being immoral pays more, it has nothing to do with ad-blocking.

> All this advertising need and money isn't going away over night

They could reroute that money into the products themselves. Cheaper prices, more quality, it's their choices.

Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by halayli on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:55AM (#15110026)
one day you'll run a business and your opinion will likely shift as you'll understand it's purpose.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by tomp on Sunday August 27, 2017 @01:46PM (#15111759)
I'd gladly exploit existing social structures to make a profit, and still oppose them.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by gggdvnkhmbgjvbn on Monday August 28, 2017 @10:55AM (#15116885)
Many adblockers block random images with “track“ or “ad“ in their css classlist.
Re:AdNauseam – Clicking Ads So You Don't Have To by Muges on Sunday August 27, 2017 @05:50AM (#15110006)
> most ad-blockers don't actually block ads; they just block cross-domain, spying widgets. Nothing is preventing you from showing a self-hosted, untracked image that's actually an ad.

Most ad-blockers I know of use cosmetic filters, which can hide any element from a page, including self-hosted and non-tracking ads (see https://www.troyhunt.com/ad-blockers-are-part-of-the-problem...). Sadly, showing ads that are respectful to the user is not that easy...