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Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by hwillis on Saturday August 26, 2017 @05:10PM (#15107470)
>The correct comparison would be to compare the cost of Bitcoin to U.S. dollars or gold. Gold requires hundreds of dollars per ounce and untold energy to extract. U.S. dollars require the existence of a powerful economy and trillion dollar military to keep the currency secure and desirable.

No it isn't- the energy cost of bitcoin is ongoing and depends on the volume of transactions. Each time money changes hands, it costs energy to verify it. Comparing it to VISA or ACH makes the most sense, because those also incur ongoing costs per transaction.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by spiorf on Saturday August 26, 2017 @05:27PM (#15107564)
This is very wrong. It does not work that way at all.

Volume or value of transactions has nothing to do with the energy expended.

The energy is needed to calculate a mathematic proof that makes sure your transaction cannot be reversed or tampered with.

This mathematic proof on average is calculated every 10 minutes, with no correlation to the number of transactions.

You make a transaction, and if the bitcoin network has expended 1TWh after you sent it, at least 2TWh are needed to reverse that transaction (and/or any other transaction). You can see how over time it becomes impossible, even with unlimited money, to reverse one.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by hwillis on Saturday August 26, 2017 @05:37PM (#15107624)
The hashing is merely a way to choose a random block. It's not a proof and it doesn't do anything fancy. It just picks a random computer to say "this is how the transaction history looks".

The energy increases with the volume of transactions because there will be more people calculating hashes. The more people mining, the harder they make the hash calculation so that the target is ten minutes. More transactions = more people mining because there is more demand to verify blocks.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by spiorf on Saturday August 26, 2017 @05:54PM (#15107691)
I repeat, you got it very wrong.

Transaction number is not correlated with mining energy expenditure.

Mining is used to secure the ledger in a way that the same amount of energy is needed to alter it.

The block hash begins with a number of zeros.

Try for yourself how many tries it takes to find a string that hashes to a hash beginning with 3 zeros.

Bitcoin block hashes begin with 13 or 14 zeros IIRC. This means that you need to try trillions of combinations again if you want to alter a block. And then you must keep finding other hashes with enough zeros fast enough to outcompete the whole network.

But the cost of hashing is the same, with 1, 10 or 1000 transactions in a block. And the block time is on average fixed at 10 minutes.

You don't hash transactions directly, you hash a block header that keeps only the merkle root hash of the transactions. The merkle root is fixed size.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by pdpi on Saturday August 26, 2017 @06:10PM (#15107758)
> Transaction number is not correlated with mining energy expenditure.

You're only kind of right. The mining algorithm cares not one bit about number of transactions, so higher tx volume has no direct effect on the mining energy expenditure. But it does have a second order effect.

More transactions usually entails higher fees (as people compete for block space to put their transactions in). More fees means higher mining rewards, means higher incentive to mine, means more mining activity, and, therefore, higher energy expenditure.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by decentralised on Sunday August 27, 2017 @01:00AM (#15109216)
> The mining algorithm cares not one bit about number of transactions

Actually it does to some extent because the transaction hashes are used to calculate the block header hash.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by spiorf on Sunday August 27, 2017 @02:19AM (#15109402)
Yes, but the hashing of the merkle tree to obtain the merkle root takes like 10^4 hashes for 10^3 transactions. Compared with 2^80 that is about the number of hash operations needed to find a POW block header, it it trascurable.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by decentralised on Sunday August 27, 2017 @02:51AM (#15109492)
I'm not sure about that calculation to be honest. The merkle root is very simple to calculate and verify that's why it's so useful. The POW difficulty is in finding a hash starting with the right number of zeroes and containing the previous block header hash.

Did i get this wrong?

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by imnotatwork on Sunday August 27, 2017 @06:41AM (#15110142)
No, you're right.

Numbers i said are my guesses, but the order of magnitude should be about that.

I don't remember exactly how many hash ops you have to do to put 1000 txes in a merkle tree, but it should be more than 1000 and less than 10000.

My point was exactly that. Computational cost of the merkle tree is negligible when confronted with the computational cost of the POW

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by Retric on Saturday August 26, 2017 @06:04PM (#15107728)
Hash costs are a large fraction of overall costs, but not 100%. Network bandwidth is not free. The more transactions the more beefy the full nodes must be, worse every node pays the full costs or lose out on some transaction fees.

But, it gets worse simply maintaining value takes hashing power to avoid a bad actor double spending and destroying faith in the system. Thus, even as a value store you need to pay for large scale hashing.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by hwillis on Saturday August 26, 2017 @06:16PM (#15107783)
You can't just scale the number of transactions in a block forever and still have a stable currency. If you have only a few miners working on massive blocks, then they confer very little confidence onto the transactions in the blocks. More transactions, more mining. The whole point of the system is to verify transactions and it stops working if it doesn't do that.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by imnotatwork on Sunday August 27, 2017 @06:52AM (#15110182)
> You can't just scale the number of transactions in a block forever and still have a stable currency.

If you mean that over time the incentive to centralization become stronger, yes, you are right. There must be competition to enter the blocks, otherwise when mining subsidy ends, there will be no incentive to secure the ledger.

If you mean that ten times the transaction have a computational cost 10 times greater (or 5, or 2), you're wrong.

> The whole point of the system is to verify transactions and it stops working if it doesn't do that.

Plenty of cryptocurrencies are mining tons of empty blocks. on the short term, if there are no transactions, mining continues with the same difficulty.

The effect is long term: if noone is using the currency for transaction, it has no value so less and less people mine it. The difficulty drops, and the security drops, pulling value down even more.

You are almost right, but it is a very indirect effect, and takes years to manifest itself.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by SimonPStevens on Saturday August 26, 2017 @06:05PM (#15107732)
You have a very distorted view of how it works.

The number of transactions is entirely unrelated to the number of people mining. There could be an increase in transactions while the number of miners falls, or vice a versa. This is why the hash difficulty adjusts, to ensure that the new block rate (and therefore the transaction rate) stays the the same regardless of the number of miners.

If the number of miners dropped, energy use would drop, but transaction throughput would remain exactly the same.

Also, transaction size (in value) is entirely unrelated to transaction size (in kilobytes) which is what effects the number of transactions that can happen. Most transactions that just transfer some bitcoin from one assess to another are exactly the same number of kilobytes irrespective of how many bitcoin are being transferred.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by pdpi on Saturday August 26, 2017 @06:15PM (#15107777)
> The number of transactions is entirely unrelated to the number of people mining

I also commented elsewhere to this effect, but this is not quite true: number of transactions correlates very strongly with higher transaction fees, which further incentivises mining activity. Higher transaction volumes also usually come hand in hand with higher prices, which is another incentive for mining activity. Just because there is no direct effect (which you're absolutely right — the mining algorithm cares not one bit about the transaction volume) doesn't mean there aren't second order effects at play.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by SimonPStevens on Saturday August 26, 2017 @07:02PM (#15107948)
Yeah, I saw that, you are of course right, but like you say that is a 2nd order effect.

The post I replied to was claiming that more transactions strictly required more miners to process them, which isn't true. Yes, more transactions might incentiveise more miners, but it doesn't require them. And it's only one part of the complex interplay of incentives that miners face.

Say price dropped sharply, that could result in an increase in transactions as speculators scrambled to get their coins to an exchange to sell, while at the same time we might see a drop in miners because with lower bitcoin priced there is less payout for mining.

Ultimately the sequence of incentives and disincentives that drive miners is complex. Because of course, although a drop in price might deter some miners, if others believed that the drop was only temporary may continue mining and just hold the bitcoin to sell later when the price recovers. I think it's hard to say anything totally concrete about the expected miner behaviour following any event.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by mcv on Saturday August 26, 2017 @08:14PM (#15108218)
If a single bitcoin transaction uses enough energy to power 5 households for a day, that certainly makes me not want to do any bitcoin transactions anymore.

I knew it was wasteful, but this article is really putting it into perspective. And because of the proof-of-work system, the wastefulness is intentional; you have to prove you've wasted enough time and energy to be allowed to mine a bitcoin.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by Taek on Saturday August 26, 2017 @08:21PM (#15108254)
To say that one transaction costs that much power is a misunderstanding of what the power is useful for. The amount of electricity spent mining a block is a function of the block reward, which is a function of the value of the total system. A block doesn't just protect the transactions inside of it, it also protects every single transaction in the whole history of bitcoin.

And, the high value transactions tend to dictate the value of the whole system. Not every transaction is equal in that regard. If all the high value transactions were to move to another system, the coin price would plummet, and so would the amount of energy required to mine blocks, and thus the 'per transaction' cost for low value transactions would plummet.

The right way to think about it is that we spend around a billion dollars per year protecting $70 billion in assets. Put that way, it doesn't seem so bad.

If you look at the percent of the US GDP spent on military defense, you'll see that bitcoin is quite attractive by comparison.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by SamBam on Saturday August 26, 2017 @08:53PM (#15108384)
It's hardly justifiable to imply that the entire military defense of the United States is simply to protect "$70 billion in assets."

If the entire monetary system of the US were replaced by BitCoin, do you think there would be no need for an army? Would the block ledger be "protecting" all the actual physical assets, land, and people?

You can argue over whether the US should have a military, or its size, but to imply that it's just to protect the dollars isn't going to sway anyone in an argument.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by Taek on Saturday August 26, 2017 @09:25PM (#15108503)
I meant only to imply that the US military alone is about 3.5% of our economy, and that the protection to value ratio there is about 1:30

I did not mean to imply that bitcoin could replace the entire military, only that the ratio of spending vs. assets defended is better.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by adventured on Saturday August 26, 2017 @10:36PM (#15108780)
The protection to value ratio is drastically beyond 1:30. Your value calculation is worthless if it only takes into account annual GDP.

The total value of the United States, all assets, private and public, is closer to $250+ trillion [1]. That's a 1:400+ ratio.

US household assets alone are near $95 - $100 trillion at this point [2]. That's a ~1:160 ratio just for household wealth.

You missed by an extreme amount in your speculation and that's just based on present value. If we were going to be rational about it, we'd want to consider that present military expenditures help to keep safe future value creation (I'll note that I'm not arguing whether those expenditures are $n too high or too low).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_position_of_the_Unit...

[2] http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-fed-households-idUSKBN...

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by Taek on Sunday August 27, 2017 @02:26AM (#15109417)
The military is also not the only protection system in place. You are right, just considering the GDP is too limited, but considering just the military is also too limited. Police, fireman, courts, security systems, the SEC, locks, alarms, etc all contribute to protecting assets in the US.

It's a hard number to measure. Bitcoin inflation has a fixed measurable cost though (12.5 coins per 10 minutes), if that's acceptable to you for the benefits you get, then it's money well spent burning electricity.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by mrb on Sunday August 27, 2017 @02:18AM (#15109401)
"If a single bitcoin transaction uses enough energy to power 5 households for a day, that certainly makes me not want to do any bitcoin transactions anymore."

This is another point where BECI is misleading... the author managed to screw up so many things on his site :-(

Feel free to transact more. This will NOT consume more energy, as explained by many other commenters. The energy per transaction decreases as more transactions are processed, see argument #5: http://blog.zorinaq.com/bitcoin-mining-is-not-wasteful/

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by decentralised on Sunday August 27, 2017 @01:03AM (#15109221)
> If a single bitcoin transaction uses enough energy to power 5 households for a day,

Care to share a source for this claim? I think you might have gotten transaction and new block generation mixed there, but I may be wrong, of course.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by mcv on Monday August 28, 2017 @06:32AM (#15115629)
I got it from the article, but several responses say that it's a misrepresentation by the article, and that more transactions would not consume significantly more energy.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by decentralised on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @11:50AM (#15176384)
I too think that's the case but I'm always willing to learn.. thanks for answering.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by tylersmith on Saturday August 26, 2017 @05:32PM (#15107595)
Energy consumption is in no way related to transaction volume. Whether there are thousands of txs per block or only one the energy used will be the same.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by matt_wulfeck on Saturday August 26, 2017 @06:57PM (#15107928)
Which is part of the problem, since the max number of transactions Bitcoin can process a second is around 10.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by tylersmith on Saturday August 26, 2017 @07:00PM (#15107942)
Sure, but it means it when it can handle thousands of transactions the energy usage doesn't need to increase.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by zeroxfe on Saturday August 26, 2017 @05:30PM (#15107581)
> the energy cost of bitcoin is ongoing and depends on the volume of transactions

Wait, what? That's not correct at all.

The energy cost is based on the "difficulty", which is derived from the moving average of the hashpower in the network. Bitcoin effectively forces the network to take a specific amount of time to mine a block irrespective of the number of mining nodes. The transaction volume has nothing to do with it.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by proofofstake on Saturday August 26, 2017 @05:22PM (#15107543)
For a fair comparison we should look at "energy" in an abstract manner. Time and money is energy too. Every time gold exchanges hands, it also costs energy.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by spiorf on Saturday August 26, 2017 @05:57PM (#15107703)
Think about the energy expended to take that gold out of earth. And to make the chemicals for extractions....
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by alister on Saturday August 26, 2017 @05:20PM (#15107529)
If read the article correctly, he's including the cost of mining Bitcoin, not merely energy cost to verify a coin (which is absolutely trivial). Once all Bitcoin is mined (yes, there's a built-in maximum), or it becomes prohibitively expensive to mine, there won't be any mining costs.

You can look at the current Bitcoin energy costs as the startup cost to establish a new gold mine or a new country with its own currency.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by acchow on Saturday August 26, 2017 @05:30PM (#15107582)
> Once all Bitcoin is mined (yes, there's a built-in maximum), or it becomes prohibitively expensive to mine, there won't be any mining costs.

In that future you will still mine blocks, but there won't be any new bitcoin generated in that block. Sure, you might want to use a different word for that than "mining", but it will still have very real and significant energy.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by tylersmith on Saturday August 26, 2017 @05:33PM (#15107605)
"Validators" is the more generic for term what are also called miners or stakers.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by cloudhead on Saturday August 26, 2017 @05:32PM (#15107596)
Not quite, even when the cap is reached, new blocks will still need to be created for new transactions, which will require proof-of-work to achieve consensus, and thus energy expenditure.
Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by jstanley on Saturday August 26, 2017 @05:31PM (#15107589)
Once all bitcoin is mined, there will still be mining costs, but they'll be 100% paid by tx fees.

Bitcoin will probably look extremely different by then, so most bets are off anyway.

Re:Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index by hwillis on Saturday August 26, 2017 @05:33PM (#15107604)
Mining always needs to happen. Once it stops producing coins, the cost burden just moves over to the people using the currency. The mining cost only decreases if the proof-of-work difficulty decreases.

If mining becomes less profitable, fewer people will mine and the proof-of-work will tune to be less difficult, but the cost never disappears and there's still a huge amount of energy wasted in the selection process for adding blocks. If too few people mine the currency will be totally destabilized.