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Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by jmnicolas on Thursday August 17, 2017 @03:53AM (#15034612)
So a baker could refuse to make a cake for homosexuals then ?
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by jamespo on Thursday August 17, 2017 @05:06AM (#15034987)
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by ckastner on Thursday August 17, 2017 @06:47AM (#15035470)
Then the argument should be "The business does not need to be accountable to anyone, except with regards to protected groups".

However, that was not the argument that was made. The original argument is unconditional: "to anyone", period.

The grandparent pointed out this flaw. You are on the same side of the argument.

Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by jamespo on Thursday August 17, 2017 @07:24AM (#15035683)
I don't care about the original argument, it wasn't made by me. Obviously the business has to respect the law.

Therefore comparing cloudflare and the bakery is dishonest, there you go.

Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by ckastner on Thursday August 17, 2017 @08:06AM (#15035928)
> I don't care about the original argument

Well, that explains why you still haven't realized that the comment you took offense with was actually concordant with your own position.

Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by drunkenmonkey on Thursday August 17, 2017 @09:23AM (#15036505)
I think a big problem is that impoliteness and a lack of good faith exists within these online discussions.
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by DarkKomunalec on Thursday August 17, 2017 @07:52AM (#15035853)
What makes you think the discussion is limited to what the law is, versus what it should be, or more broadly, what the 'right' thing to do is, regardless of the law?
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by jamespo on Thursday August 17, 2017 @08:22AM (#15036040)
Good luck getting agreement on the "right" thing to do
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by genon on Thursday August 17, 2017 @07:32AM (#15035742)
Your link does not necessarily refute the post you're replying to. Gay people are not a protected group under Federal law; nor, AIUI, are they in most states.
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by jamespo on Thursday August 17, 2017 @08:21AM (#15036034)
The "gay bakery" case I'm aware of was in Northern Ireland
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by darpa_escapee on Thursday August 17, 2017 @04:37AM (#15034830)
What's with everyone bending over backwards to equate Nazis with non-genocidal, non-terrorist groups of people?

Given the chance, gay people will try to live their lives in peace.

Given the chance, Nazis will try to exterminate billions of people.

Nazis haven't been systematically persecuted and killed for millennia. Ironically, gay people have been systematically persecuted and murdered by Nazis. Such persecution is why there are protected classes, which some governments recognize gay people as belonging to.

Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by ckastner on Thursday August 17, 2017 @04:52AM (#15034923)
> What's with everyone bending over backwards to equivocate Nazis with non-genocidal, non-terrorist groups of people?

That's not what is happening, as I understood it. The grandparent simply refuted the general argument that "The business does not need to be accountable to anyone" by providing a counterexample whereby unconditionally following this argument can lead to an unwanted outcome.

In other words: it's not that simple.

Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by tchalla on Thursday August 17, 2017 @05:16AM (#15035031)
Actually, it is that simple. The grandparent made a false equivalence. Sexual orientation, color of skin, race etc. is not a choice that someone makes. Your political orientation is a choice you make. One of them is not the same as the other.
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by ckastner on Thursday August 17, 2017 @05:27AM (#15035075)
The false equivalence is in the original argument ("accountable to anyone"), that's what the grandparent was attempting to point out.
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by ygaf on Thursday August 17, 2017 @08:12AM (#15035973)
The equivalence the gp is making is between businesses, not clients. Businesses obviously are accountable to someone if they must serve gay people. It has already been pointed out that gays are a protected class, but deliberately(?) missing people's points has never helped a cause.
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by jmnicolas on Thursday August 17, 2017 @05:03AM (#15034972)
Thank you for explaining it better than I could (I'm not an English native speaker ;-).
[dead]
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by Jimpulse on Thursday August 17, 2017 @09:06AM (#15036366)
Do you have insight on what small groups of Nazis say or do? Even the groups at the Unite the Right rally called for ethnic cleansing of the USA. Which could be seen on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIrcB1sAN8I
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by tchalla on Thursday August 17, 2017 @05:15AM (#15035026)
False equivalence. Your sexual orientation is not a choice. Your political orientation is.
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by megous on Thursday August 17, 2017 @06:54AM (#15035504)
So have you tried actually believing something politically completely different from what you believe right now?

Because it's not really a choice. You can pretend play to advocate for whatever political ideology. The same way you can have sex with women even if you're gay or vice versa. You can choose your sexual behavior.

But political orientation is not really a choice. It is perhaps a result of your choices, early influences, social group, etc.

Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by kikimaru on Thursday August 17, 2017 @07:44AM (#15035812)
My politicial mindset, today, is vastly different to my political mindset from 5 or 10 years ago.

It helps that I live in a country with more than 2 dominant political parties; it lets me think in shades of gray (rather than in black-and-white).

Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by irishsultan on Thursday August 17, 2017 @08:21AM (#15036032)
But did you consciously set out to have a different political mindset than the one you had at the time? Because that's the only thing that matters (in this comparison at least).
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by megous on Thursday August 17, 2017 @11:40AM (#15037726)
Mine too, but it took years and a fairly complete change of people I interacted with and longterm exposure to various ideas and life experiences. It was not a decision/choice. This kind of change is a long process of learning new ways of thinking and abandoning the old ways.
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by JohnStrange on Thursday August 17, 2017 @07:21AM (#15035670)
This is independent of anyone's political beliefs, there should be limits to radical jihadists, radical anti-democratic communists, radical anti-democratic fascists of all sort, etc. You can choose to pursue your political aims with non-violent means and practice tolerance.

The idea is that you can believe whatever you want, but as soon as you start to propagate violence and pose an active threat against democracy - like e.g. making detailed plans to overthrow the government, advertising that only certain people should be allowed to vote, etc - there should be reasonable limits.

Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by megous on Thursday August 17, 2017 @11:42AM (#15037752)
I agree. The point is that one's political orientation is not a simple choice no matter how radical. It may not be as fixed as sexual one, though, but still difficult to change.

It's kind of a water a person swims in. It's the way he thinks. It's too meta for most people to even think about it as something chooseable.

Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by vacri on Thursday August 17, 2017 @07:11AM (#15035621)
Swing voters, the folks who decide every election in a modern democracy, would disagree with you.
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by paradoja on Thursday August 17, 2017 @01:21PM (#15038777)
I don't think I agree with the grandparent, but usually swing voters don't change their political views, but rather political parties adapt their programs (or rather, propaganda) to appeal to them. So I don't think that's a good example.
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by mantas on Thursday August 17, 2017 @08:25AM (#15036067)
Does existence of bi-sexuals dimmish existence of gay or straight people?
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by coldtea on Thursday August 17, 2017 @07:06AM (#15035592)
>Your sexual orientation is not a choice.

Who says it's so for everybody?

There are millions who insist that their sex orientation is their choice. They can try X, experiment with Z, and whatever. That was part of the idea of "fluid genders" and sexual liberation in the sixties and especially seventies.

Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by denzil_correa on Thursday August 17, 2017 @07:36AM (#15035757)
No, people insist that they are free to have ANY sexual orientation. This doesn't make your sexual orientation "a choice".
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by coldtea on Thursday August 17, 2017 @09:06AM (#15036368)
Well, people have changed sexual orientation. Straight to gay, lesbian to bi, gay to transgender and vice versa.

If that's not "a choice" I don't know what is. Just because it's not often a choice doesn't mean it can't be.

Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by mattcoles on Thursday August 17, 2017 @09:41AM (#15036653)
In the same way that some days I am happy and other days I'm sad, doesn't mean that my mood is choice.
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by coldtea on Thursday August 17, 2017 @10:40AM (#15037168)
Well, to keep with the example, people can also chose to be happy or sad. Some revile in being sad -- others opt to see the positive side.
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by damnfine on Thursday August 17, 2017 @08:43AM (#15036199)
It is'nt always, but it sure can be.
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by rayiner on Thursday August 17, 2017 @07:04AM (#15035582)
Religion is a choice, but you can't refuse to bake a cake for Seventh Day Adventists.
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by LinXitoW on Thursday August 17, 2017 @08:02AM (#15035906)
Your sexual orientation might not be a choice, but if and how you express it definitely is. "Oh, yes, Jews are subhuman. One bread please." is on the same level as "I love me some pussy, obviously, because i'm a man. One bread please".
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by elcapitan on Thursday August 17, 2017 @07:25AM (#15035692)
How is forcing people to take up a different political view to buy bread better than forcing them to change their sexual preferences to buy bread? That whole protected group thing is completely nuts.
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by tchalla on Thursday August 17, 2017 @07:35AM (#15035749)
I just explained how it is different. Political ideology is a choice; sexual orientation is not.
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by elcapitan on Thursday August 17, 2017 @07:50AM (#15035842)
So you voluntarily choose to see the world completely differently, just so that you can buy bread? How is that a choice? It's force. And some people choose different sexual orientations in their life, so how is it not a choice?

In both cases the discrimination would just force me to pretend to be something other than I am.

Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by denzil_correa on Thursday August 17, 2017 @08:17AM (#15036004)
I don't think you still understand. Political choices can change, sexual orientation/race/color of skin doesn't.
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by elcapitan on Thursday August 17, 2017 @08:53AM (#15036267)
I understand that this is your dogma, yes. And I understand that you want to legitimize the things you want to force on people.

I don't disagree about color, but the way how you can or cannot force people to avoid visibly and openly living their political identity OR their sexual identity is exactly the same, as it is for religion. It's always outside force, forcing you to pretend to be other than you really are.

Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by frubar on Thursday August 17, 2017 @12:23PM (#15038147)
This is what a lot of people want to believe but orientation seems to depend more on culture than genes (e.g. Ancient Greece, US Prisons, etc.).
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by danieltillett on Thursday August 17, 2017 @07:04AM (#15035576)
Not that I am any way supporting DS, but political orientation is not very plastic.
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by joering2 on Thursday August 17, 2017 @08:08AM (#15035945)
That will be very sad place when business is forced to service someone even being against it for their personal believe, just because that something is not their choice but rather a set in stone fact.

My brother in law is mentally ill.m and his local diving center won't take him for a dive. I have to ask him to sue them for refusal of service based on his sicknes and because his sickness is not his choice.

Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by thehardsphere on Thursday August 17, 2017 @06:15AM (#15035301)
If the cake is denied because the baker doesn't want to create content they disagree with (as opposed to being denied merely because the requestor is homosexual), then why not?
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by Ygg2 on Thursday August 17, 2017 @04:52AM (#15034919)
Look. We only apply those rules for sides we like.
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by _khau on Thursday August 17, 2017 @05:37AM (#15035122)
Homosexuals are the way they were born.

Nazis are not.

Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by danieltillett on Thursday August 17, 2017 @07:07AM (#15035595)
Actually nobody knows why homosexuals are homosexual nor why Nazis are Nazis. There is very little scientific evidence to support any cause for either outlook.
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by ionised on Thursday August 17, 2017 @09:26AM (#15036537)
Are you implying homosexuality is a choice?
Re:Why We Terminated Daily Stormer by danieltillett on Thursday August 17, 2017 @04:48PM (#15040831)
No I am saying we don't know why.