Same disclaimer.
I used to be the guy who only did X (from age 8). Spending all my free time doing X impressively improved my ability to do that but only until the day that X became my job. From that day forward, any benefit derived in terms of mastery was vastly overshadowed by fatigue and burnout. The more I participated in X after-hours the worse I became at life in general (X by association).
I used to bring up topics like that at work. I would brag about my weekend/month project to coworkers; the praise made me feel better about my mundane weekend. I honestly loved hearing about weekends that had nothing to do with tech because I wanted that. I do now and I honestly never want to go back to doing weekends of X.
When everyone is done gushing over the stories of the fiber in the basement (you can too and learn something), share your story about your hike up a mountain. You can't claim that people aren't interested in something (even so far as learning themselves) if you haven't actually tested those waters.
There's actually plenty of room for that type of programmer personality: the jobs at non-software companies where programmers are a cost center. E.g. enterprisey - line-of-business - type of programming. Actually, the "back-office" type of software dev is the majority of programming jobs out there. Yes, there may be a few "enterprise" managers here or there that might be impressed with extra-curricular programming but it's often not a reasonable scenario. (E.g. virtually no programmer that knows a 4GL like SAP ABAP language (business process programming) will be maintaining a github profile full of ABAP code.)
It's the founders and managers at tech companies that value the developers that enjoy programming on their own. The founders themselves often started programming as kids and so it makes the most sense to them to try and attract programmers with the same enthusiasm.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to be strictly a 9-to-5 Mon-Fri programmer. That life approach meshes better with companies outside of Silicon Valley.
Nobody who spends significant amounts of time with valley programmers believes that the 10-hour-day 6-day-a-week people are, in general, spending all that time productively.
Sorry for not being clear. I'm not talking about burning 60+ hours for the company.
I'm talking about the attraction to programming personalities that truly enjoy programming on their own time. E.g... The programmer spends exactly 40 hours for Google/Facebook/Microsoft and another 20 on his weekend programming side project because he enjoys it.
On the other hand... if you're a Peoplesoft/SAP programmer, no hiring manager cares that you don't write that code "for fun" on your own time as a hobby.
Maybe some of that sentiment is happening. That's orthogonal to the point that programmers who enjoy programming as a passion (that's a dangerous word) naturally will prefer hiring programmers who enjoy it beyond the boundaries of a 40-hour job.
It's just human affinity. Think of rock bands starting up in a garage. The singer + bass player + drummer are looking to add a guitarist. If they interview a guitarist and he says, "well, I'll just strum whatever and it don't matter if I play with you guys or on a cruise ship or a Las Vegas lounge bar -- guitar is just a job", he won't get an offer to join. For the band members, music is their life.
Since programming is often "fun" and software engineering is similar to "artistry", it's natural for programmers who enjoy coding for fun to want to hang around other programmers who enjoy it in a similar degree. This culture is especially true for startups. As the company matures, it becomes less important.
Wait, all of them? That's a pretty sweeping generalization. I think you should allow for the possibility that a substantial fraction of them do it because they enjoy it.
Also, often the sentiment goes the other way. Like:
- So, how was the weekend?
- Awesome! I've learned about this cool algorithm...
- Hey, what's wrong with you? Get a life, like, go see some movies or something...
> people who claim that writing code for fun makes them superior developers do this
What is "this" in this sentence? If "this" = "excited to feel superior" (from your previous comment), then the sentence reads almost like a tautology. If you simply mean that bragging and feeling smug about writing code for fun is kinda pathetic, then I agree. But that's true for bragging and feeling smug about, well, almost anything.
I've probably worked that much before during hypomanic episodes. I can't keep it up indefinitely though.
The odds of hitting that level of flow on a paid work project? Sure I care, but it's never going to meet the criteria and get that far under my skin. I can believe in the merits of a goal/project to the highest degree, but if it's not scratching the particular itch that takes me into the zone, I get some kind of x-factor, then I'll never be able to hit the 100% flow state for any significant period of time.
Just personal experience, I think there are others who are far more capable of getting 100% into that kind of work.
And how do you get into those jobs when even CS students still share the same culture? It goes back to the chart I mentioned:
http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/percent-bachel...
Do the students in those community colleges share that as well?
Half the students were in a fraternity or sorority, and the engineering college as a whole had its own co-ed service fraternity.
Most common topics of discussion: beer, that last episode of Miami Vice, and trading tips on how to beg professors for server time so we can complete our final projects and graduate.
i'm not sure where you get this conclusion that those who enjoy extracurricular programming often started as kids.
Usually those who started as a kid means they were fortunate enough to have parents who were programmers. Even if they're parents weren't that case, then usually its the case of just doing html/css on myspace
There is no dearth of doctors who volunteer to serve for International Red Cross, Doctors beyond borders, or like in my country(India)-- Go to far away villages and set up diabetes, thyroid and cataract camps to help treat people for free.
Many lawyers routinely do volunteer work for many causes that can't afford legal work.
The biggest reason I go the mechanic close to my home to get my motorcycle fixed, is because he seems to be insanely passionate about it and in his spare time(Usually late nights, in a job which is physically taxing) resurrects vintage motor cycles for sheer passion.
Its not exactly wrong to be hard working and passionate about something.
Obviously, computer programmers can program anywhere, anytime, and it's legal. It's also possible to get a very early (as in pre-pubescent) start in actual programming, whereas there are, again, legal hurdles to becoming a doctor or a lawyer much younger than the median.
As for the rest of the cultural markers, I wouldn't presume to say too much, because I don't know that many programmers.
That's more because it's hard to engage in medicine or law outside of an institution, which makes it hard to hobby with on the weekends. Plenty of auto mechanics fix cars on the weekend, plenty of graphic designers do personal art projects on the weekends. There are also plenty who don't.
Take someone like Adam Savage. Talking about being in front of the camera, behind it, being producer, or just being a consumer of other peoples work. Talking about the script, the camera technology, the set, the props, the making of props. About side projects, personal project, about other from of artistic endeavors.
I don't know personally that industry, but from everything I hear, it seems common behavior that people in the TV and movie industry often have a personal connection to the work they do. Maybe it just that when people create things and are allowed to be artistic, then the work tend to melt into the personality of those that are passionate about it.
Doctors read through medical literature all the time.
I know plumbers who have fully decked out their house with incredible custom setups (e.g. hydronically heated walls), mechanics who work on their own cars on the weekend, contractors who live in fabulous homes they built themselves, and artists who work on their own projects during the weekend.
At the same time, many of my coworkers have interests outside of technology. It varies. A lot.
> (which might include sci-fi, fantasy, video-games, board games, certain types of discussions, and a lot more)
Hiking, sailing, martial arts, world travel, cooking, beer, animal rehabilitation.
> (which might include sci-fi, fantasy, video-games, board games, certain types of discussions, and a lot more),
Sci-fi and Fantasy movies have been mainstream for some time, and my non-engineering friends get together for board games as often as my engineering friends. Video games are played by 49% of Americans (Pew), equally split between men and women.
I've known men and women who have had cultural problems fitting into their teams, engineering and non-engineering.
Also in regards to the article, music is even worse than politics for % chance of finding agreement, if I brought up the latest \m/ concert I went to, I'd find maybe a couple of people in total who'd want to talk about it at my office! It'd be "how was it? Nice, ok, cool."
Funny, I don't like the same kinds of video games as most other developers. I like Minecraft, and only one colleague I know who enjoys it is a (very smart) woman, although she is a tech writer, not a developer (she is perfectly capable of programming, in fact it is her hobby, she just likes writing better).
So please, don't stereotype. :-)
1. Like sports
2. Wear expensive or formal clothing
3. Dislike video games
4. Are uninterested in science fiction
5. Don't drink
6. Are over 50
... you'll find valley software development culturally inhospitable. Obviously, lots of well-dressed 50 year old baseball fans have programming jobs. But those people don't "read" as software developers, and if you take those people and strip away their resumes, they will underperform people that don't have those characteristics in software development interviews.
That's why I used X. The name is irrelevant.
> X (which might include sci-fi, fantasy, video-games, board games, certain types of discussions, and a lot more)
Any suggestions on how to make it more clear? I don't want to give it a name, to avoid focusing in the name, which will then lead to an endless gaming culture vs. nerd culture vs. geek culture vs. the world.
Honest question, non-confrontational, really wanna know :)
I'm almost sure that most hardcore gamers actually never become part of the CS/SWE crowd because of video game addiction. Gaming and software development are two very different domains. Hardcore gamers usually are not motivated, accomplish very little, and lack in career development.
The best computer games have alot in common with software design as far as thinking about how a system works, planning for edge cases that could lead to problems/opportunities, and developing the patience to find which strategies pay off over a long period of time.
More than that, I often find that the most addicted hardcore gamers are people who are using that to replace the sense of purpose that work gives them, which means they're pretty hard working once they find a career they enjoy. Of course, then they might turn into a workaholic instead...
Writing code and playing a video are two very different experiences. Sure, you'll need to test the game, but testing games is not a fun time contrary to popular belief. And more important, the vast majority of software developers do not actually work in the video game industry. Most either work in systems development or make CRUD apps.
I see far more diversity in tastes and interests in most other majors and careers, while in CS/SWE, X seems to hold a monopoly.
CS/SWE goes far beyond a career, usually becoming close to a religion or way of life. I rarely see doctors, lawyers, or most professions engaging in their practice outside work as a hobby, but in CS/SWE, you're evaluated by your hobbie-contributions on GitHub, your postings to HackerNews, etc.
There's not a lot of room for people to be in CS/SWE and not take part in all this non-work community.
And that brings us to X, a set of interests and values that permeate CS/SWE workers, and frequently makes those interested in CS/SWE feel unwelcome if they don't take part in X.
It doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman (or any of the other identities/genders/etc.), if you don't like X (which might include sci-fi, fantasy, video-games, board games, certain types of discussions, and a lot more), there's a good chance that you might not feel like you belong in CS/SWE (this isn't universal, and I've seen many teams that embrace cultural diversity pretty well).
Sadly, for whatever reasons (I have my own hypothesis that the rise of male-dominated gaming culture in the 80's and its further attachment to CS studies due to the overlap between coding and gaming is the cause) X is male-dominated. So even if men who don't take part in X feel unwelcome, the impact is bigger on women, as they have a much lower representation in X.
One of the key pieces of information that led me to think like this, was this: http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/percent-bachel...
I don't claim any authority on this, or even that this is correct. These are just my own (low-n) observations, and I'm pretty sure a good part (if not all) of it probably doesn't stand up to reality.
So I'm probably all wrong here, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
My gut feeling is that I shouldn't post this, as the previous discussions here about this issue are borderline flamewars, from both sides, but I still have hope that some good discussions are possible here.