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Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by resu_nimda on Monday August 07, 2017 @12:35PM (#14948816)
Unsurprisingly neither side in this story seems deserving of much sympathy. Old-money NIMBYs vs. new-money opportunists. "I just love SF so I wanted to buy a part of it." The potential extortion of wealthy homeowners via legal technicality just happened to be a bonus of this great piece of real estate!
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by mikeash on Monday August 07, 2017 @12:42PM (#14948861)
You see extortion, I see charging a fair market rent for use of their land.

Note that the new owners are not threatening to cut off access to the houses. I'm pretty sure that would be illegal. They are merely threatening to charge for parking. Parking space is valuable and something people should pay for.

Edit: I also want to say that having your property auctioned off after you fail to pay property taxes for thirty years is hardly a "technicality."

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by lemoncucumber on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:08PM (#14949112)
See also: http://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/07/26/if-americans-paid-for-...

The expectation that parking should be cheap or free is bizarre when you take a step back and think about it. I don't expect the government to provide massively subsidized self-storage spaces, yet I do expect massively subsidized places to store my private vehicle.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by mikeash on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:10PM (#14949128)
Exactly. I'm a surburban car user, but I still think the expectation of free parking is harmful to all of us. Why do we get to park for free on government land?
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by dawnerd on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:15PM (#14949169)
> Why do we get to park for free on government land?

Because presumably, your tax money is already paying for it.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by mikeash on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:29PM (#14949289)
Right, except it's not my tax money specifically, but all of our tax money, even tax money from people who don't use street parking.

Free use of government property is a great thing when it's a public good, but parking is not one of those situations.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by lemoncucumber on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:56PM (#14949575)
Exactly. The article I linked makes a pretty good case for why free parking is not a net public good: "Transportation is now the largest source of greenhouse gas emissions in the nation. Pricing parking, on its own, could make a significant dent in the nation’s carbon pollution, not to mention the terrible loss of life on the roads."

I don't expect private cars to ever disappear, but starting to line up the economic incentives to to disincentivize private car use makes a lot of sense if we're really serious about addressing global warming.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by inetknght on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:43PM (#14949434)
Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it's not a public good.

If tax money built the parking spot and tax money maintains the parking spot, then why should the government get extra income from the parking spot? Is my tax burden alleviated when I pay to use this parking spot?

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by mikeash on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:50PM (#14949521)
The whole point of charging for the parking spot would be so that they wouldn't have to use tax money to maintain it.

It's not a matter of alleviating your tax burden, it's a matter of alleviating everyone else's tax burden so they're not subsidizing your car. You should pay for what you use unless there's a compelling reason for it to be subsidized, not the other way around. Roads are essential for freedom of movement and in any case are too difficult to toll on a massive scale, so it makes sense to subsidize them. Parking spaces are inessential and easy to charge for, so we should charge for them.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by sgdread on Monday August 07, 2017 @02:54PM (#14950173)
Nobody is subsidizing your car: as a car owner, you already paid 1) sales tax; 2) yearly registration; 3) yearly property tax; 4) taxes included in gas. Why car owners should be double-triple taxed?
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by Sleeep on Monday August 07, 2017 @09:36PM (#14952811)
Those costs are minor and not close to covering the cost of car ownership. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/10/driving...
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by mikeash on Monday August 07, 2017 @03:00PM (#14950227)
Those don't come close to covering it all. Especially since I don't pay any (4).

Paying to store your car is not a "tax" so it cannot result in being double-taxed. It's a standard payment in exchange for use of property.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by gozur88 on Monday August 07, 2017 @02:09PM (#14949725)
I don't see free parking as any less of a public good than a park.

Besides, last time I was in SF I didn't see any free parking. It was all meters and expensive garages.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by mikeash on Monday August 07, 2017 @02:13PM (#14949764)
Anyone can use a park. You can't use free parking unless you own a car. Cars are expensive, so free parking just subsidizes people with money.

Free parking is rare in SF, which makes it all the more unusual that the people on this street had it for thirty years because they didn't pay their taxes for it.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by davemp on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:51PM (#14949527)
> Free use of government property is a great thing when it's a public good, but parking is not one of those situations.

Gonna need to provide some sources if you want to claim that public parking doesn't benefit society.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by mikeash on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:52PM (#14949543)
Public parking benefits car owners, and does nothing for non-owners. Do you dispute this?
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by davemp on Monday August 07, 2017 @02:47PM (#14950101)
Yes. You're working from an overly reductive perspective. Transportation, government subsidy, and population density are way too complex to cover with a simple "I don't use it, so why should I pay for it" argument.
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by mikeash on Monday August 07, 2017 @02:56PM (#14950191)
I understand that with transportation in general. For example, roads are difficult to charge for and it's hard to draw a direct line between use and costs, so it often makes sense to subsidize those. Public transportation is worth subsidizing to free up space on the (subsidized) roads, help poor people get around, and other such things.

But parking at home? There's a straight line connection between the car owner who uses the space and the cost of the space. I shouldn't expect the government to pay for my parking any more than I should expect the government to pay for my house. In fact, paying for people's houses would be a lot more reasonable, since people need housing, but don't need parking.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by sgdread on Monday August 07, 2017 @02:59PM (#14950218)
Well, car owners can use the same argument: public transportation benefits only people without cars, why car owners should pay maintenance of train stations, buses, trolleys, repair shops for those etc?
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by mikeash on Monday August 07, 2017 @03:04PM (#14950261)
Public transportation benefits drivers by taking traffic off the roads, and benefits everybody by reducing pollution. It also helps poor people get around, and they could use some help.

I can't come up with any such counterarguments for public parking. It doesn't benefit non-drivers in any way, and the people it does benefit mostly don't need public assistance.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by sgdread on Monday August 07, 2017 @03:28PM (#14950454)
Is public transportation more efficient per mile/person? Yes. Does it solves all the transportation problems? No: it's not covering even half of our needs. Just for reference: only 30% of NY population is using mass transit for commutes. SF is just 15% [1]. And in most areas in the country you can't go and buy some food if you have no car: there is not even a sidewalk, not to mention public transportation. So what you are proposing is to additional burden for the majory of the population for "storing their property" without providing any alternative.

Edit: who pays majority of taxes for road use? It's car owners. You have cheap buses only because car owners paid majority of the bills for road network maintenance and development.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_transit_in_the_United_Sta... [2] https://taxfoundation.org/state-gasoline-tax-rates-2017/

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by mikeash on Monday August 07, 2017 @04:04PM (#14950810)
I am providing an alternative: pay for what you use. That's how most things work. Why should cars get special treatment?

Gas taxes don't cover all road expenses. I looked at Virginia's data (since that's where I live) and nearly as much road construction/maintenance money comes from normal sales taxes as comes from gas taxes. Another substantial chunk comes from the Federal government, and the Feds pay out substantially more than they receive from the Federal gas tax.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by owenversteeg on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:15PM (#14949171)
I agree with that, but that article says the _average_ American parking space costs six hundred dollars PER YEAR. How does that make any sense whatsoever? Maybe in downtown areas in a few big cities. But that's the average for the entire country. There's no possible way that can be true.
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by mikeash on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:37PM (#14949372)
Why can't it be true? Land is expensive, road construction is expensive, road maintenance is expensive.

$600/year to maintain ~200ft^2 of road seems relatively reasonable to me.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by wokky on Monday August 07, 2017 @02:30PM (#14949939)
...estimates that the annualized cost of land, construction, maintenance, and operations per parking space in the U.S. comes out to $600 [PDF].

I've heard it said, although I can't find a cite right now, that the construction of an underground parking complex may cost $40,000 per space. You can see how that sort of thing would push the average up a lot.

You can also adjust "annualized costs" a lot by changing assumptions about useful lifetime. In practice, many American suburban parking lots are maintained very poorly and probably come out very cheap per space.

The PDF linked from the article does show more detail than the $600/year figure. While some categories cost a little less than $600/year, several categories cost a lot more, so the average gets up there even though the expensive kinds are rarer.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by pm24601 on Monday August 07, 2017 @04:03PM (#14950790)
Double that cost on underground parking more like $80K-$90K... my source is personal conversation with apartment developers in MV. You can believe me or not.
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by i_cant_speel on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:26PM (#14949262)
Are you saying that is expensive? The parking in my building in a big city is over $200 per month. The extremely expensive places are going to pull up the average quite a bit.
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by randallsquared on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:26PM (#14949263)
In downtown areas in some US cities, a parking space might go for hundreds per month.

http://dc.urbanturf.com/articles/blog/the_cost_of_a_parking_...

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by resu_nimda on Monday August 07, 2017 @12:49PM (#14948938)
Whether it's technically legal or not is immaterial, it's still unsavory opportunism in my book. They have added no value, they're not looking to add value.
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by npsimons on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:21PM (#14949216)
> They have added no value, they're not looking to add value.

Which is basically property ownership/landlordship in a nutshell. Not that I'm disagreeing with you, just pointing out it's something we accept all the time already.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by resu_nimda on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:42PM (#14949426)
Yes but not all landlords are the same. Some put time and effort into maintaining the property and making improvements. I would consider that adding value.

Like everything else, there's a spectrum, and I find the couple described in the article to be on the extreme "slumlord" end, except even more obnoxious because they are masquerading as nice gentle good samaritans.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by icebraining on Monday August 07, 2017 @02:37PM (#14950019)
Why do you assume they won't be putting time and effort into maintaining the property and making improvements?

In fact, they already did, by paying the debts of the property.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by namlem on Monday August 07, 2017 @06:16PM (#14951710)
Owning land never adds value. Owning a building can add value if you maintain and improve it.
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by disconnected on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:38PM (#14949386)
You are barking up the wrong tree here. The home owners aren't being screwed by some technicality.

All of this was triggered by some super-mega-rich people not paying taxes for ~30 years, which after all this time amounted to a grand total of $900. After ample warning, the street was put up for auction and was bought by someone.

This whole situation could've been headed off at the pass several times: by paying the owed taxes at any point or by outbidding everyone at the auction as a last resort. But they took the "do nothing" route - maybe because they thought they could get away with it? - and got punished for it.

No sympathy from me. We all have obligations, and I get no shred of sympathy from my government when I fail to meet them (they slapped a €20 administrative fee on top of an unpaid €0,20 fine when they mailed the notification to me, just so you can get an idea... that 100x the cost of the fine in "administrative fees").

Why should they get anything more or less than what the average citizen gets?

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by mikeash on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:44PM (#14949452)
It sounds like it wasn't intentional. The property was so badly managed that they failed to pay their taxes by accident. They missed the notices because they didn't keep their address up to date with the city.

Still, I don't have much sympathy. You'd think someone at some point in the 30 years they weren't paying taxes would have said, hey, you know, we haven't paid property taxes for the street in quite a while, maybe we should see what's going on with that.

If I had some problem stemming from failing to pay taxes for three decades, I doubt I'd be treated nicely either.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by lsaferite on Monday August 07, 2017 @02:23PM (#14949867)
Sounds like a massive failure of the HOA to me.
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by cardiffspaceman on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:28PM (#14953309)
I blame the accountants. When the one handed over to the other it should have been handled by the "professionals" instead of being left to chance.
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by jeffdavis on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:04PM (#14949080)
Yes, they added value. The rich residents ignored their tax obligation for decades even though it was under-assessed. These people highlighted that fact, which will soon be corrected.
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by mikeash on Monday August 07, 2017 @12:55PM (#14949007)
Charging market rent for parking will result in more efficient use of the space.
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by abrodersen on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:05PM (#14949084)
Charging market river toll will result in more efficient use of the Rhine. /s
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by mikeash on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:08PM (#14949114)
I mean, yes, if the Rhine suffers from insufficient capacity, charging money to use it will help ensure that the existing capacity is used as efficiently as possible. For modern examples along those lines, consider the Suez or Panama Canals.
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by mrkurt on Monday August 07, 2017 @12:55PM (#14949008)
If they sell the spaces to people outside the block, they're adding value.
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by Joeri on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:00PM (#14949043)
Aren't they now responsible for road and sidewalk maintenance?
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by sjg007 on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:26PM (#14949260)
Yes.
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by iliketosleep on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:15PM (#14949166)
You could say the same about most forms of rent-seeking behavior.
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by escherize on Monday August 07, 2017 @12:57PM (#14949018)
If someone owns something and rents it out, could you explain how that not provide value?
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by resu_nimda on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:09PM (#14949117)
I am using the term value in a more personal/human sense than a purely economic one. Most of the comments replying to mine seem to be defending this behavior based on these more technical economic arguments (understandable on HN). I'm talking about the value that is created by a person creating and doing things, rather than simply finding opportunities to arbitrage for a quick buck. It's subjective so we can agree to disagree if you find the type of behavior described in the article to be valuable.
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by currymj on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:07PM (#14949105)
now you're talking. follow this to its logical conclusion about all rentiers!
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by comex on Monday August 07, 2017 @02:07PM (#14949702)
The price they end up charging may be a “fair market rent”; it may not be. But it doesn’t have to be, because the couple effectively has a monopoly - on convenient parking for the houses that the residents already live in.

You might argue that the street was always privately owned. But if the parking fees had existed when the residents were searching for a home, they could have factored them into the price, and if the result was too high, they could have easily picked another offer. Thus the parking fees would have effectively been part of a competitive market for housing. However, now that they already live there, moving out would have a significant financial and psychic cost. The limit on the price the couple can get away with charging is set by that (along with, of course, the perceived cost of alternate parking arrangements, again both financial and psychic) - not by anything related to the market value of the land they own.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by mikeash on Monday August 07, 2017 @02:19PM (#14949823)
That stretches the definition of "monopoly" awfully thin. They can always park on the street a couple of blocks away and walk home, like lots of city-dwellers do.

Yeah, it sucks that they've lost something they assumed they'd have forever when they purchased their property. But that's why you need to make sure that the HOA is in good shape when you buy a house that has one. Apparently nobody noticed, for thirty years, that the HOA wasn't paying taxes on its property, or that the wrong address was listed for it. Did they never have an internal audit?

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by dawnerd on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:11PM (#14949134)
Depending on the easement they might not be able to charge. I know in California some easements do allow for transitory parking.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:hQNIidI...

While I'd like to assume the new owners researched the deed before purchasing, I get this feeling they didn't since it was an auction and simply saw an opportunity to take advantage of wealthy people. My question is, why didn't the city just convert it into a public road?

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by wahern on Monday August 07, 2017 @02:57PM (#14950205)
There have been private streets and alleys up for sale like this before in San Francisco.

  https://sf.curbed.com/2015/10/14/9911570/unicorn-alert-san-francisco-driveway-for-sale-asks-50k
Monetizing these things can be very difficult because the adjacent property owners often have very strong arguments for an easement.

The laws of easements and adverse possession are highly fact based so it's not worth opining on this case without more facts. But the takeaway is that you _always_ want to have an explicit agreement with people who are using your land, and ideally you want them to pay an annual rent that you enforce, even if it's a token sum of $1.[1] Once you allow people to use your property without an explicit agreement, you open the door to either outright losing your property or losing the ability to control your property.

This is a good thing because, on balance, if somebody willingly sits on their rights for a long period of time it's better that he lose out rather than permit him to, out of the blue, disrupt the settled expectations of everybody else. But it does mean that as a property owner you have to remain at least minimally vigilant.

That's why these streets sell for such little money. If the ability to monetize ownership of these private streets were clear cut, you can bet that they would sell for much more at auction. I doubt this couple were the only speculators who saw this opportunity.

[1] Don't think of paying a token sum as a pointless ritual. In the eyes the law, the regular exchange is objective evidence of the existence of the contract and its continuation.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by cardiffspaceman on Monday August 07, 2017 @10:38PM (#14953406)
Totally arm-chairing this here....

Adverse possession seems to require an element of you know, possession. No one possessed this property except the HOA until the nice couple bought it, and then their ownership has been the opposite of notorious because they didn't want to come into the light until they had their legal ducks in a row. If the couple had been paying the taxes for the last 30 years it might come under adverse possession. If this goes in favor of the couple without limit to whatever they want to do, it would be because the auction is unreservedly upheld. I basically agree that there is some chance that at least an easement will be found to exist in favor of the HOA. The tax collector did sit on their rights to the detriment of all, including a bit of degradation of the already weak reputation of tax collectors.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by wahern on Monday August 07, 2017 @03:18PM (#14950369)

  My question is, why didn't the city just convert it into a
  public road?
Because then they'd have to pay to maintain it. The city would be exchanging revenue for a huge liability. Plus, that'd probably be the worst outcome for the homeowners because then the road would have to be kept open to the public.
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by zitterbewegung on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:02PM (#14949059)
I have seen dwellings in my local area (Chicago) that you have to pay for parking on the street. I think that the event is just unusual instead of extortion.
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by spaceflunky on Monday August 07, 2017 @12:46PM (#14948901)
While I'm glad you pointed out that that this is a shitty thing to do, I still think its a slimy thing to do regardless of whether it's done to the rich or poor.

A couple things to note:

(1) if the couple does win, then it only bolsters someone else's case to do something similar elsewhere. When it happens in a poor neighborhood and people are up in arms, guess which case will get cited.

(2) there's no way in hell this is going to stand. there are probably mistakes that were made in not notifying all the homeowners of the sale. the homeowners are too rich and too powerful to not find some kind of loop hole.

(3) that couple is in for a world of legal hurt. if they choose to fight they're going to rack up a shit load of legal bills. it's them vs 40 rich people. yes, $90k for the street and $5M in future legal bills. even if they win, they'll be buried in legal bills. And then when they do try to collect parking fees, the homeowners are going to hassle them for every dime. if the couple thinks the homeowners are just going to roll over and merrily pay them any amount of money for parking, they are sorely mistaken.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by mikeash on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:03PM (#14949070)
I suspect that poor people get screwed over all the time by failing to pay property taxes and having their property sold at auction. And nobody else cares, because it's just part of life.

This isn't "be careful what you wish for, it might happen to poor people too." This is, "some rich people finally get the tiniest taste of what life is like when the entire system isn't rigged in your favor."

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by dmode on Monday August 07, 2017 @12:53PM (#14948980)
My bet is that the couple is hoping that rich homeowners will pay a pretty penny to buy the land back from them
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by spaceflunky on Monday August 07, 2017 @02:49PM (#14950121)
That's 100% their plan, but a stupid idea. Don't pick fights you can't win.

There are 40 homeowners who would rather drag that couple through legal hell out of spite than pay a $1 parking fee. And they have the wherewithal in spades to do it.

Even if the couple gets passed all that, the homeowners are going to complain about every little thing. Crack in street? Fix it. Curb crooked? Fix it. Someone illegally parked? Deal with it now. Trash on street? Clean it. Leaves on street? Sweep it now. Grass too long? Mow it immediately. Don't answers these calls immediately? Get accused of negligent landlord.

If the couple thought they could just kick their feet back and collect checks... I just don't know what to say...

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by softawre on Monday August 07, 2017 @03:07PM (#14950283)
They could drag it out, but they may all agree to give up 10k each (==400k) for a nice profit.

Why pay lawyers here? Spite?

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by spaceflunky on Monday August 07, 2017 @03:34PM (#14950519)
Pretty much. I doubt the couple has even $100k to spend fighting this. So why pay the couple $400k when you can pay $400k to a lawyer and have the satisfaction of "winning."
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by ryandrake on Monday August 07, 2017 @03:48PM (#14950657)
They had $90K to buy it but not $100K to defend in court?
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by spaceflunky on Monday August 07, 2017 @04:05PM (#14950812)
IMO this kind of investment seems like the thing that someone with more than $190k would not be messing around with. But maybe they do, but would you spend $100k defending a $90k investment? Or to put it another way, if the HOA rallies up all 40 property owners to spend $20,000 each fighting this, is it worth it to outspend a $800,000 legal war chest to protect a $90,000 investment?
Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by ryandrake on Monday August 07, 2017 @06:01PM (#14951629)
> But maybe they do, but would you spend $100k defending a $90k investment?

If I thought I could successfully "flip" it for, say $500K, which is pocket change for the affected people in that neighborhood, then sure, $190K would be a bargain. And if the 40 property owners could kick in $20K each to sue the investor, surely they'd rather kick in $10K each to buy the street back instead.

Re:SF residents get a shock: Someone bought their street by diogenescynic on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:33PM (#14949327)
>"I just love SF so I wanted to buy a part of it." The potential extortion of wealthy homeowners via legal technicality just happened to be a bonus of this great piece of real estate!

I agree, but it's hard to feel bad for the residents of that neighborhood. They're just getting taste of the type of crap that the lower and middle classes deal with every day.