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Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by sgentle on Sunday July 30, 2017 @05:22AM (#14885161)
Never do a music industry startup unless you have a billion dollars, can raise a billion dollars, or plan to be acquired by a company with a billion dollars to spare. That's the table stakes for going toe-to-toe with the big three.

They'll bleed you to death with licensing fees, deputise you into their copyright enforcement police, upload their songs to your platform on one hand while suing you with the other, and all the while cry about how extracting monopoly profits is so much harder than in the old days.

Just go disrupt something safer, like organised crime or the international diamond trade. At least with those the law probably won't change out from under you.

Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by elmar on Sunday July 30, 2017 @11:30AM (#14886337)
Dalton Caldwell at YC Startup School 2010 did a great presentation on the subject talking exactly about the nuances of the music industry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTOlrN5-UGU

In October 2010, Caldwell spoke at Y Combinator’s Startup School event at Stanford University about the failures of imeem and of the challenges still facing the music industry. At the event, Caldwell delivered a cautionary message for entrepreneurs interested in music startups. Caldwell criticized major music labels for holding too much power, focusing mainly on the industry’s licensing deals for content. He said that the current state of the industry made success for startups bleak.

While some commentators praised Caldwell for his harsh but realistic insight on the digital music startup industry, many critics (notably David Hyman, CEO and founder of MOG) felt that the lessons learned from Caldwell’s experience with imeem did not accurately portray the industry as a whole.

Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by elmar on Monday July 31, 2017 @07:04AM (#14890877)
Startups CAN Work: MOG CEO David Hyman Responds To imeem’s Dalton Caldwell

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1817845

Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by cupcakestand on Sunday July 30, 2017 @07:10AM (#14885453)
Best comment in the thread. It shows that one of SoundCloud's key problem is an oligopolostic industry they are dealing with.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by skewart on Sunday July 30, 2017 @09:54AM (#14885938)
I'm not so sure that's true. Their key problem is that they didn't understand how much value there is in up-and-coming, amateur, and underground music. The record labels only have power when it comes to their catalogue. SoundCloud could have truly disrupted the labels by providing an alternative way to promote, monetize, and discover music. But they somehow got off that track.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by wolco on Sunday July 30, 2017 @10:48AM (#14886163)
And that is the big loss. Having a place where one could discover new music has so much value over being served the same songs by the same few artists
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by vec on Sunday July 30, 2017 @12:07PM (#14886526)
Does it though?

I'd like this to be true, but in practice it seems like most people (me included) strongly prefer hearing songs they already know most of the time, enjoy songs more with repetition, at least up to a point, and are more than willing to learn to like almost anything with high enough production value.

Some people are music snobs as a hobby and most go on discovery quests from time to time, but it honestly seems like most people most of the time want music they don't have to think too much about or devote too much attention to. Indie-only channels can't really deliver that.

Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by jamescostian on Sunday July 30, 2017 @12:32PM (#14886662)
I think most people like variety. Yes, some people always listen to the same 50 songs, and some people never listen to the same song twice. But most people don't go their whole lives without expanding their musical tastes.

While iTunes and Google Play gave chart toppers the spotlight, SoundCloud turned amateurs into professionals. "Nobodies" could put their music on soundcloud and get them streamed millions of times, and that recognition could eventually get them a chance to sign on a dotted line

Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by lukaslalinsky on Sunday July 30, 2017 @02:30PM (#14887171)
Why do these two groups of people need to be served by the same service? Why couldn't there be a site for young producers to easily publish their music online and connect with the fans? If I make a song, I can't even imagine what would it take to get it to Spotify. I'd probably have to pay some agency. SoundCloud with its community is the perfect tool for this.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by skewart on Sunday July 30, 2017 @04:16PM (#14887576)
> ...most people most of the time want music they don't have to think too much about or devote toouch attention to.

I agree with that statement - dedicating significant energy to finding new music is a fairly niche hobby.

However, I don't think easy-to-find necessarily equals label-owned music.

I often listen to music for hours at a time in the background while I'm working or relaxing at home. I'll aim for an artist or mood and then I'm happy to let 'related tracks' from artists I've never heard of play indefinitely. If there's a track I really like I'll look at who the artist is and make note. I listen to a ton of "indy" music this way. Mostly, I never know who the artist is. Sometimes I discover new artists. All of this is very low effort on my part.

In fact, it would be significantly more effort to listen to megastar pop music or classics. I'd have to find a way to play the tracks - YouTube most likely, which means a ton of poorly thought out ads, or else paying for the songs directly, which usually is just slow and annoying.

I'd wager the biggest hours of music listening are for background music - at work, in stores and restaurants, while studying, while lounging around the house. I'm sure some people always want to listen to the same ten albums on repeat every day, but I suspect most people are driven more by ambiance. Indy music will do that job just fine.

Of course people will always want to play nostalgic hits. But I suspect that's a smaller driver of music consumption by hour of attention (or at least partial attention) than many people assume. That means the labels have way less power than people assume.

Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by dboreham on Sunday July 30, 2017 @12:36PM (#14886686)
If that were true then MP3.com would have been a stunning success 18 years ago.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by pessimizer on Sunday July 30, 2017 @12:59PM (#14886800)
Wasn't it? It was taken down by a lawsuit over my.mp3.com.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMG_Recordings,_Inc._v._MP3.co....

Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by nitrogen on Sunday July 30, 2017 @03:03PM (#14887314)
Everything was done by someone else before it was done in a way that people remember, sadly. Anybody remember Click-n-Run? No, just the App Store.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by jasonlaramburu on Sunday July 30, 2017 @05:05PM (#14887818)
Probably because they realized that path would not be sustainable. Most people don't want to pay for music, period. Few would pay a monthly fee for a service that only offered relatively unknown artists. While SoundCloud does have a unique UI compared to other streaming services, it's not enough of a differentiator to compete with Spotify.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by cupcakestand on Sunday July 30, 2017 @11:09AM (#14886251)
How should this work? Once somebody is trending on such platforms, labels will come, give them tons of money, a contract and take over. And take them away from these platforms as well.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by TheOtherHobbes on Sunday July 30, 2017 @11:50AM (#14886442)
They'll give them an advance as bait for an exploitative and crappy contract which may well be run in a dishonest way.

Given that most sales are downloads or streams now, the only thing big labels can bring to the table is a nuclear level of publicity. And by definition, that's going to be reserved for a tiny handful of multimillion-selling household names.

Today's smaller bands and artists - which will be the majority - get no particular benefit from signing to a big label.

They may get some smaller benefits from signing to a smaller niche label, but they certainly won't get a big pile of cash from that.

The situation is similar to book publishing, where a tiny handful of massively popular signed authors get most of the publicity and the cash, but there's a solid underclass of midlist writers who do better with self-publishing, because they earn more from direct sales and - ironically - have a more secure career too.

There was a massive opportunity for SoundCloud to become Amazon/Kindle for Musicians.

MySpace had that space for a while but lost it. BandCamp is close, but doesn't quite make it because the default artist pages suck, and it sees itself as a store, not so much as a marketing and PR outlet that also happens to sell downloads and physical media.

SoundCloud could have won that space, but apparently SoundCloud's management never understood that there's more money in hosting associated services - web pages, mailshots, blogs, and so on - than there is in providing hosting for audio files.

In fact YouTube seems to be quietly taking over for basic track hosting, with the added benefit of video. There's no reaction feature on the tracks, but I'm not convinced that was ever an essential USP on SoundCloud.

But I still think someone else with VC backing could win this space and clean up.

Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by drizzzler on Sunday July 30, 2017 @01:06PM (#14886838)
Yes. Someone please build this. Message me if you need a designer.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by jasonlaramburu on Sunday July 30, 2017 @05:40PM (#14887972)
Most musicians who can figure out how to record and upload their own music to SoundCloud could just as easily create a generic website with squarespace or something similar to host a blog. The only value in a comprehensive social network for musicians would be the audience it could bring. A large audience is very hard to build.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by ranidu on Sunday July 30, 2017 @09:04PM (#14888842)
Would love to chat! [email protected]
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by skewart on Sunday July 30, 2017 @02:23PM (#14887144)
Yes! This. SoundCloud should have focused on helping musicians promote themselves, connect with fans and monetize their music. And yeah, this space is pretty wide open right now. The ways people create and consume music are changing, and nobody is really taking advantage of it.

Man, now I really want to build what SoundCloud should have been.

Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by erikpukinskis on Sunday July 30, 2017 @03:16PM (#14887363)
Great. They leave, push their listeners over on the younger version of them.

It's like sailing... Every bit of air that hits your sail will end up behind you, dispersed. That doesn't mean your boat will stop. You travel by charting a course where you stay ahead of a pressure differential.

Same in music. You need to find a source of new artists that will continually replenish you as you lose artists to platforms that focus on the stage after you in maturity. The beauty of culture is it always replenishes.

Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by dilemma on Sunday July 30, 2017 @08:17PM (#14888653)
This is exactly why SoundCloud should be a publisher. To take advantage of the gems their platform unearths.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by drizzzler on Sunday July 30, 2017 @12:59PM (#14886799)
yes.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by dilemma on Sunday July 30, 2017 @08:09PM (#14888621)
SoundCloud should be a music publisher - a record label.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by nathancahill on Sunday July 30, 2017 @03:47PM (#14887466)
"track"
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by lukaslalinsky on Sunday July 30, 2017 @08:39AM (#14885683)
SoundCloud's key problem is that they couldn't stay small because of VC money, not the music industry.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by wodenokoto on Sunday July 30, 2017 @09:15AM (#14885811)
They couldn't stay small due to user influx. They couldn't sustain their music offering without deals with the music industry.

VC money is just something they needed because they couldn't do any monetisation without deals with the industry (too much of their content is non-fair-use derivatives of the big 3's copyrighted content) and they obviously can't stream millions of hours of music without some sort of money.

Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by jasonlaramburu on Sunday July 30, 2017 @05:49PM (#14888006)
Musical talent is not equally distributed. The Big 3 offer the most talented and/or trending artists (who are often struggling financially) a path to riches and fame that is difficult to refuse. Until a startup can replicate or disrupt this model, the labels will always have a monopoly on the best talent.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by untilHellbanned on Sunday July 30, 2017 @06:03PM (#14888083)
Music marketing isn't equally distributed.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by jasonlaramburu on Sunday July 30, 2017 @06:21PM (#14888167)
It's not just the marketing. With enough VC funding a startup could build an equivalent or better marketing apparatus. The Big entertainment companies have a monopoly on key distribution channels: radio, tv, in-store, stadium shows etc. The succesful startup will be the one that builds an entirely new distribution channel for musical acts.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by ahmedfromtunis on Sunday July 30, 2017 @07:23PM (#14888428)
SoundCloud was so close to be that startup.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by yuhong on Sunday July 30, 2017 @08:34PM (#14888723)
The fun thing is how this is thanks to an economy based on consumption and IP, making higher profit margins good. My favorite however is the Betamax case from the 1980s. I wonder how lawyers took over in the first place.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by skrebbel on Sunday July 30, 2017 @08:18AM (#14885627)
Well, Spotify managed just fine. They didn't have those billions when they started out in Sweden.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by bogomipz on Sunday July 30, 2017 @10:04AM (#14885989)
Did they manage just fine? They had to cut the same extortionate deal with the big 4 records labels and give them an equity steak in the company as well[1]. Given the recent figures I think the jury is still out on whether Spotify and this whole "the more we make the more they take" business model is actually sustainable:

"In 2016, Spotify lost just over $600 million ($601.4 million), up significantly from 2015's losses of just under $258 million. This means losses increased by 133%."[2]

[1] http://www.swedishwire.com/jobs/680-record-labels-part-owner...

[2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/hughmcintyre/2017/06/15/spotify...

Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by mcguire on Sunday July 30, 2017 @04:15PM (#14887571)
"...give them an equity steak..."

I think I love that phrase.

Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by bogomipz on Sunday July 30, 2017 @05:15PM (#14887874)
LOL. It sounds very Marie Antoinette. I'm glad you pointed this out :)
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by rythie on Sunday July 30, 2017 @12:20PM (#14886594)
Who said you need billions to get started, you need a billion to keep going, when the music industry notice you. Spotify have raised $1.56bn to date: https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/spotify

Which included $1bn in debt just last year: https://techcrunch.com/2016/03/29/stream-with-the-devil/

They wouldn't have raised that, if they were "just fine".

Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by pmarreck on Sunday July 30, 2017 @02:36PM (#14887201)
Can't someone start a brand new music business model from scratch?
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by meowface on Sunday July 30, 2017 @02:43PM (#14887226)
I can't really imagine how. Content needs to be licensed if you want to profit off of it legally, and I'm not sure how you can disrupt licensing unless you already have many billions of dollars to throw around.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by nitrogen on Sunday July 30, 2017 @03:06PM (#14887327)
Start a new "label" the way Netflix and Amazon have their own productions.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by johncolanduoni on Sunday July 30, 2017 @04:32PM (#14887653)
Both of which definitely fall under "billions of dollars to throw around".
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by qrbLPHiKpiux on Sunday July 30, 2017 @08:10AM (#14885605)
I would never consider doing a music industry startup due to BitTorrent.
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by Kenji on Sunday July 30, 2017 @07:09AM (#14885448)
Seems to work for Bandcamp though (which I love by the way).
Re:SoundCloud's Collapse by thirdsun on Sunday July 30, 2017 @02:48PM (#14887254)
The difference is that Bandcamp doesn‘t need to make deals with major labels. Instead they have smaller and larger labels as well as independent artists coming to them.

I really don‘t understand why Soundcloud tried to get into general, mainstream music streaming. Keeping their niche as paid host for DJs, radio shows, independent artists and small labels should have been their main focus. As a paid service for listeners (in contrast to artists) it simply can‘t compete with Spotify, Apple and others.