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Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by kbart on Friday July 21, 2017 @03:18AM (#14818675)
"Michael Allen, the activist who got Whole Foods to stop selling Haystack Mountain's goat cheese, says he understands why prisoners like having those jobs. But he'll keep fighting against prison labor until the workers get paid better."

I don't follow such logic. Inmates get free shelter, free food, free healthcare (well, taxpayers pay for it, but that's another topic), so it's only fair that they make up some of it by providing labor imho. Do such activists honestly propose paying them market rates? How about people living on minimum wage then that get to pay for everything themselves? Also, many people go to prison without any job experience, providing them with some increase their chances of reintegration to society. And just look at the place of that farm (pictured in the article), I myself would accept some wage cut to work in a place with such view.

Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by pyrale on Friday July 21, 2017 @03:27AM (#14818710)
"How about people living on minimum wage then that get to pay for everything themselves?"

How about them? Is it not a fundamentally flawed system when workers at the bottom of the scale wonder if they wouldn't be better off in prison? How do they feel about having to compete with forced labour?

What entitles consumers to pay sub-living wages in order to benefit from a product? This reminds me of people feeling entitled to pay shit prices for some services because "it's just a student job".

"Also, many people go to prison without any job experience, providing them with some increase their chances of reintegration to society."

yeah, by forming them to a job that can apparently no longer sustain a free farmer.

Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by rdtsc on Friday July 21, 2017 @09:44AM (#14820459)
Sadly enough it is true. I was told in some colder areas homeless people would commit a crime they know would amount to a few months prison sentence in the fall just to have a reliable shelter and food for the winter.

Or there was a story of a man who robbed a bank then waited for the police to come so he could get some cancer treatment while in prison.

When these things happen there is something very very wrong in a society

Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by PixelB on Friday July 21, 2017 @10:07AM (#14820633)
The US seems to be experiencing more and more instances of "desperate" people in all senses. Desperate for jobs, healthcare, food, shelter, happiness.
Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by wfo on Friday July 21, 2017 @10:16AM (#14820688)
Yes, life is horrifying for people on minimum wage. Why not make life better for people out of prison rather than exploit people in prison and then hold them up by comparison to the free but brutally impoverished ones and say "look how great you have it, you're not doing slave labor!"

Supposedly rehabilitation is a goal of prison; how nice would it be if prisoners walked out with a small nest egg, to help them get settled and survive while they go through the impossibly difficult task of finding a job with a criminal record? Right now, it's very tempting to go straight back into crime or drugs since these are the only career opportunities available. Maybe saving at minimum wage for 5 years would give them enough money to for the first time in their life feel safe, or enough capital to invest in something that could make their lives better, like tools, a business, etc. Maybe they could get some fulfillment and feel like they are part of a social unit by sending money back to their family while in prison. Maybe if they are paid the market value of their labor they will develop confidence that their labor is worth something and a viable alternative to, say, crime.

And yes prison is expensive for the state, but that's the state's problem and provides no justification for exploitation. The state can't do something unspeakable to you like lock you in a cage to be beaten and raped for decades and then make you pay for it. If prison is too expensive, the state should imprison fewer people. There are far more economically efficient alternatives to locking up millions and throwing away the key (like improving conditions for the poor!); the state is making a stupid, cruel, and horrible choice and it should pay the full price for it or it has no incentive to make a better one.

Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by vinceguidry on Friday July 21, 2017 @08:46AM (#14819964)
> Inmates get free shelter, free food, free healthcare (well, taxpayers pay for it, but that's another topic), so it's only fair that they make up some of it by providing labor imho.

You call these things free? If I shot you in the head, would you consider it me giving you a free bullet?

Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by zrth on Friday July 21, 2017 @11:44AM (#14821409)
Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by _wdh on Friday July 21, 2017 @06:03AM (#14819252)
The problem with this is that allowing prison labour to be cheaper than free labour puts competitors out of business and gives incentives to the state and business lobbyists to arrest more people for the sake of profit instead of reformation or containment.
Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by IanCal on Friday July 21, 2017 @06:15AM (#14819282)
There are two different approaches to this that are the same on the outside. Paying the workers more is one, the other is charging a minimum for their time, but X% of their earned wages go to some other entity (the government directly, victim support, community projects). This would help the issue with competition, but not necessarily the other issues. It also doesn't touch the moral aspect of how much people should get paid.
Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by PixelB on Friday July 21, 2017 @10:10AM (#14820649)
Get rid of private prisons, period. You can even keep the same business model except instead of the profits going to a corporation, the system is run as a non-profit government entity and the workers are actually paid a fair wage.

As it is right now, we have slaves working to enrich CEOs, board members and investors.

Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by icebraining on Friday July 21, 2017 @10:51AM (#14820975)
You can even keep the same business model except instead of the profits going to a corporation, the system is run as a non-profit government entity

Which is exactly what's happening in this case. There's no private corporation, it's a governmental division, yet the inmates are still paid a pittance. Maybe you should review your preconception of private industry vs government.

Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by mtgx on Friday July 21, 2017 @03:27AM (#14818711)
You're conflating multiple issues.

1) Just because you're in prison, doesn't mean you deserve to be treated like a work animal. Some people are in there for serial murders, while the vast majority are there for theft, tax fraud, smoking marijuana, etc - maybe even for "resisting arrest".

2) Even if what you said made "economic sense", while disregarding any human rights the prisoners might have, the problem is that many (or most?) of the prisoners are now in private prisons. That means those prisons get both the taxpayer money and the free labor. So both the taxpayers and the prisoners lose, while the private prisons score a double-win. Do you think that's how it should work, too?

Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by icebraining on Friday July 21, 2017 @03:34AM (#14818730)
the problem is that many (or most?) of the prisoners are now in private prisons

It's actually around 8%: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/11/u-s-private-...

Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by lsiebert on Friday July 21, 2017 @03:46AM (#14818780)
http://time.com/4596081/incarceration-report/ 39% of prisoners shouldn't be in prison. Per Time magazine, not exactly the most liberal news publication I can think of.

Prison labor transfers wealth from prisoners by paying them less so that the companies that employ them can save money.

Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by Spooky23 on Friday July 21, 2017 @09:35AM (#14820384)
The labor issue isn't a clear cut ethical no-no. Working to a productive end is one of the few rehabilitative avenues available. I'm pretty sure these type of jobs are seen as sought after privileges.

Private prisons are most often jails (ie. short term, not places that do this) and do not represent the majority of prisoners.

Sometimes advocates publish misleading figures about this by focusing on prisoners staying in contracted out facilities. The majority of those are prison beds in county jails. These are used to relieve over crowding, house prisoners closer to trial location or otherwise reduce transport. In some places, counties run these as a revenue generator.

Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by crispyambulance on Friday July 21, 2017 @09:54AM (#14820537)
> I myself would accept some wage cut to work in a place with such view.

Would you take a wage cut down to $1 dollar a day?

And if so, would you still do that putting yourself into the shoes of the inmates who face grim job prospects as ex-felons when they get out regardless of their work history?

Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by silassales on Friday July 21, 2017 @10:01AM (#14820592)
You acting like those inmates didn't put themselves there? Oh I feel so bad for them that they made the choice to break the law.
Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by ThrustVectoring on Friday July 21, 2017 @11:23AM (#14821248)
The law isn't some fixed thing that we, as a society, have no control over. If you read the history of the War on Drugs, we essentially criminalized a good chunk of what African Americans do, with the very thinly veiled purpose of oppression.
Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by silassales on Friday July 21, 2017 @11:26AM (#14821275)
Okay and I very much agree that this is a problem, but that is an entirely different problem that needs to be addressed with a less corrupt law system. Not related to using prisoners to work instead of letting them rot in a cell.
Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by ThrustVectoring on Friday July 21, 2017 @01:36PM (#14822341)
No, it's highly interrelated. The ability for the judicial system to extract rents via prison labor alters the incentives for having and enforcing oppressive laws. Currently, forcing people to work on goat farms through threatening to imprison them is limited by economics - the police, prosecutors, etc only have so much resources, and the marginal prisoner costs the system money. When that's no longer true, things can end up dystopian in a hurry.
Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by crispyambulance on Friday July 21, 2017 @10:38AM (#14820859)
Sure, the inmates may "deserve" to be in prison but they're also human beings and NOT slaves.

It is morally unacceptable that anyone can profit from slave labor in a free country. Moreover, it also hurts honest businesses who are required to pay their workers normal wages.

Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by silassales on Friday July 21, 2017 @11:21AM (#14821233)
What about the argument that they are provided "free to them" food, shelter and clothing? And therefore them working for very small amounts of money, is really them paying for those things.
Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by Broken_Hippo on Friday July 21, 2017 @11:42AM (#14821388)
If the people don't want to provide things to folks imprisoned, the state should look into ways to keep folks from being imprisoned. It won't stop all of it - but at that point, prison is more of a public service.

Change laws and punishments so that fewer crimes result in jail time or removal from the workforce, for example. Especially for non-violent crimes. Improve conditions for poor folks, the mentally ill, and so on.

Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by icebraining on Friday July 21, 2017 @10:54AM (#14821006)
Who is profiting here?
Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by crispyambulance on Friday July 21, 2017 @11:09AM (#14821128)
Haystack Mountain, every business in its sales channels and whoever else buys goat milk made by people earning $1/day.
Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by silassales on Friday July 21, 2017 @11:24AM (#14821255)
No, the prison uses the money they make from the sales for the prison, that was in the article. Haystack would still have bought the milk for standard price, and sell their cheese at standard price. The extra money from the cheap labor when into the prison itself.
Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by icebraining on Friday July 21, 2017 @11:30AM (#14821297)
No, I think crispyambulance is right. The article said every other local supplier closed doors, so Haystack couldn't have bought the milk at that price.
Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by 3131s on Friday July 21, 2017 @06:28AM (#14819323)
The point is to reward prisoners for being functional and using their time constructively. It's important to give prisoners every chance to become habituated to a normal life.
Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by glibgil on Friday July 21, 2017 @03:55AM (#14818816)
You are promoting slavery
Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by silassales on Friday July 21, 2017 @10:03AM (#14820603)
You are promoting illegal activity.
Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by Broken_Hippo on Friday July 21, 2017 @11:44AM (#14821403)
There are prison systems that don't force their inmates into slave labor. Being against slavery, even in the prisons, is not promoting illegal activity in any sense.
Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by pbhjpbhj on Friday July 21, 2017 @06:22AM (#14819306)
You could require the prisoners be paid out of the segregated finances of the dairy and simultaneously garnish that pay to assist in paying the same prisoners living costs.

Or perhaps make products that either aren't cost effective for market, or solely to serve food-banks or other charities?

Re:Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm by icebraining on Friday July 21, 2017 @10:52AM (#14820991)
You could require the prisoners be paid out of the segregated finances of the dairy and simultaneously garnish that pay to assist in paying the same prisoners living costs.

I think that's essentially what's happening here.