News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by jriot on Thursday July 13, 2017 @04:40PM (#14764991)
Berlin doesn't nearly get as hot as the United States. Try sitting inside a house in Mobile, AL in July without air conditioner and see how long you last. Using your water example, what about the deserts in the US that don't have a nearby water source to cool everything. Europe is much cooler in comparison to the US.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by thescriptkiddie on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:05PM (#14765229)
A large part of this could be mitigated by building with passive thermal efficiency in mind. Features like extra insulation on roofs and south facing walls, large thermal masses, strategic eaves that block sunlight in the summer but let it through in the winter, whole building energy recovery ventilation systems, green roofs, underground living spaces, etc.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by WalterBright on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:16PM (#14765322)
Simply using a white coating on the roof can reduce the A/C bill by about 3%.

It's so simple, I do not know why this isn't part of the building code in hot places. People may not like it for their homes, but for commercial buildings with flat roofs, it's a no-brainer.

Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by dpark on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:30PM (#14765888)
Don't most commercial buildings use white roofs? I've not spent a lot of time on commercial roofs, but the ones I've been on were always white.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by pilom on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:41PM (#14765940)
In colder climates where heating is as much an expense as cooling, no. Most just put black tar up there because it is cheap. That said, when you need to pay to heat in summer and pay to cool in winter, the 3% savings in cooling doesn't help you when you also increase your heating bill in the winter by 3%.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by sjg007 on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:44PM (#14765955)
It is in Arizona. White or silver.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by WalterBright on Thursday July 13, 2017 @07:18PM (#14766121)
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Phoenix,+AZ/@33.4437866,-1...

Looks like good progress. Less penetration into the residential areas, but progress.

Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by toomuchtodo on Thursday July 13, 2017 @04:44PM (#14765034)
My bedroom in Tampa, FL reaches 90F at night without air conditioning. There is no way I could live without AC here.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by erikpukinskis on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:00PM (#14765187)
That's because your house is designed with active cooling as a presumption. If your house was designed to utilize passive cooling effects (thermal mass, green roof, evaporative cooling, overhangs, shades, airflow compression, etc) your bedroom wouldn't get that hot.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by lfam on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:10PM (#14765280)
Early Florida homes (19th and early 20th century) were built by people who understood passive cooling techniques.

But, the invention of AC and the development of super-strong residential building codes in response to destructive hurricanes has steered the last ~70 years of home construction towards sealed concrete boxes with air conditioning infrastructure built in.

Many of the classic passive cooling techniques of the old Florida homes are not even legal now. The benefit is your house doesn't collapse in a hurricane.

Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by DrScump on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:30PM (#14765426)

  the development of super-strong residential building codes in response to destructive hurricanes
plus the fact that all construction is much better insulated than the pre-war installed base.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by lfam on Thursday July 13, 2017 @07:39PM (#14766231)
True. It's the same thing in some cases. For example, you can no longer leave openings between the walls and roof, which used to let hot air out the top of your house. Talk about poorly insulated!
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by toomuchtodo on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:17PM (#14765328)
> That's because your house is designed with active cooling as a presumption.

No, it isn't. I have an enormous oak tree that overhangs the southern roof. My windows have a very low level of solar radiation they allow through. The ambient air temp at night is almost 80F. The house is built of concrete block, and stores heat during the day, releasing it at night. We're routinely at 60-80% humidity.

Just waiting for some solar shingles to be available (hurry up Elon!). Don't much care how long I run the AC every day as long as I net out 0 with solar generation.

Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by mikekchar on Thursday July 13, 2017 @07:31PM (#14766188)
Not the OP and while I don't want to denigrate the way you live, I want to react the suggestion that other ways of living are impossible. Today, where I live it the high is going to be 32C (90F) with humidity of 87%. Pretty normal for this time of year. Usually in the summer (a little bit later on) we'll have a couple of weeks where the temperature never gets below 27-28C (80F). Been living here for about 10 years without AC. I'm not a spring chicken, either.

Construction makes a huge difference -- especially airflow. Whoever made my current apartment was a genius because in the winter, the south side gets sun through the windows for about 6 hours, while in the summer there is no direct sunlight in any window. My previous apartment was an oven.

North American attitudes to seasonal temperatures are different than where I live now. In the winter here, the lows here are near freezing (1-2C), and we always have a few days in the summer well over 40C (105F) (luckily once it gets over 35, the humidity drops quite a bit). It's quite normal here not to heat in the winter, nor cool in the summer. Experiencing the seasons is considered to be "culturally enlightening" ;-) And joking aside, I've found that I like this way of living. Like you, I would never have thought it possible before I tried it, though.

Having said that, you can't always do it. I need some heat in the winter these days, due to health conditions. I worry about my mother in law who, at 80, usually refuses to run her AC in the summer. You do need to be careful of your health. You also need to be sensitive to the fact that architects build for the prevailing culture. Where I live, they work very hard to deal with this kind of thing. Where you live, they will probably optimise for something else.

Like I said, it's a very cultural thing -- and that's the beauty of the world. There are different cultures and values, each with their own charms. It's totally fair to say that you like the way you live now (and more power to you!) But it's not impossible (nor bad) to live differently.

Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by astrodust on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:45PM (#14765963)
As good as those features might be, you're still dependent on active cooling to make it liveable. There are other measures that have been used for millenia in desert and jungle environments where the house itself encourages particular paths of air flow that bring in cooler, fresh air and vent hot, stale air.

We've got the technology now to evolve this even further by doing computer simulations to come up with better designs, and by techniques like 3D house printing with concrete to make intricate ventilation systems that can circulate air through the floors and up through walls with zero energy cost.

Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by toomuchtodo on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:57PM (#14766013)
At high humidity, you're still going to be hot and drenched in sweat. The only solution is energy efficient thermal transfer (AC, heat pump, etc) and dehumidification.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by astrodust on Thursday July 13, 2017 @07:00PM (#14766029)
There are ways of doing this that don't involve expending energy, but it requires re-thinking the very concept of the modern house.

A thousand years ago you had to build things this way, you had no alternative, but now it's taken for granted that air-conditioning will solve all problems.

Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by toomuchtodo on Thursday July 13, 2017 @07:26PM (#14766167)
For sure, but I can't get insurance (hurricane or otherwise) on a home built to 1000 year previous standards. Do I care if the house can't cool itself naturally? I don't; I can't get a mortgage on it because I can't get insurance on it if its not built to current code. Hence why we run into this problem (which will be solved with more efficient AC and renewable energy).
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by erikpukinskis on Monday July 17, 2017 @12:53PM (#14790284)
Yes, this is the crux of the problem. Your state made it illegal for you to build a proper home.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @08:53PM (#14861758)
The state didn't; market forces did (ie insurance companies).
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by zabuni on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:11PM (#14765293)
evaporative cooling? thermal mass? Did you not read the parent? How is a thermal mass going to help a place that has a low temperature of 90? And how will evaporative cooling work in a place with 80% humidity?
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by erikpukinskis on Monday July 17, 2017 @12:58PM (#14790333)
Ground temp is lower than 90 so thermal mass can still help. You just need to design for proper insulation, exposure, shades, etc.

Evap at 80% humidity is about half the rate at 50%. Still functional.

Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by jonknee on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:07PM (#14765251)
The greenest building you can imagine would still be uncomfortably hot in Tampa during the Summer without A/C. It's a hot and humid place.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by losvedir on Thursday July 13, 2017 @04:51PM (#14765105)
> My bedroom in Tampa, FL reaches 90F at night without air conditioning. There is no way I could live without AC here.

You obviously could live there... it would just be unpleasant.

I lived a year in Singapore where temperatures were in the 80-90 range. I stayed on-campus at NUS and was lucky to have a room with A/C, but it wasn't common. The majority of students make do with big fans and windows. I remember working next to a campus Starbucks outside, marveling at how well designed it was to make students moderately comfortable without A/C. There was an enormous fan, and the area was covered and designed to facilitate air flow.

After my time there I came back to the U.S. and can much more readily handle persistently hot temperatures. It's fairly unusual to expect it to be cool all the time.

I also just got back from a trip to Oman where it was routinely above 90 or 100 all day long, and people there make do without A/C as well.

Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by illegalsmile on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:07PM (#14765722)
Turns out that the GP could adapt to sleeping in 90F temperatures as the human body is adaptable. After a few weeks you'd be used to it and it wouldn't matter. The Creek/Seminole did it in the southeast.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by lucb1e on Thursday July 13, 2017 @04:57PM (#14765168)
Yeah you could, if you weren't so used to AC. But do you want to live there if you're not used to the heat?
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by MisterBastahrd on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:02PM (#14765206)
I went 5 years without A/C in my car in southeastern Louisiana. I was fine in the daytime heat and humidity, even in the summer, but I would never want to sleep in it. I suppose if everyone got hammocks it'd be fine, but beds are insulators. Your body heat works against you.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by kirrent on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:31PM (#14765430)
My Australian bedroom is often that hot, if not hotter during the summer months. I have a fan. You get used to it.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by sandov on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:03PM (#14765215)
90F = 32.2 °C for anyone wondering, I just had to look it up.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by undersuit on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:34PM (#14765453)
I wonder how people lived in Florida for thousands of years then.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by astrodust on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:46PM (#14765966)
Nearly naked.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by tbihl on Thursday July 13, 2017 @04:44PM (#14765031)
I agree with most of what you've said, but I'd also argue that having large groups living out in the desert is such an absurd configuration for humans that it presupposes an indifference for any sort of sustainability.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by sbov on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:48PM (#14765580)
The unique problem of desert cities seems to be inappropriate landscaping. Even San Francisco ships its water in from over 100 miles away - not having enough water locally is just a problem of cities in general. The AC story is much worse in a desert city, but the heating story is much worse in cities in cold climates. There's also the benefit that I tend to need my AC when the sun is high in the sky, which aligns perfectly with solar. I live in SoCal and almost never use any heating, even in winter.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by cbau on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:09PM (#14765740)
Even Rome built aqueducts.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by coredog64 on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:35PM (#14765469)
You may find this hard to believe, but moving heat around (i.e. air conditioning) is more energy efficient than straight up heating. It is more environmentally friendly when you consider that in many cold locales in the US, heat is provided not by electricity, but by a shitload of on-site oil-fired devices.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by putsteadywere on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:36PM (#14765918)
I googled this, because I did find it hard to believe, and I think you're correct. According to the below source, for example, heating a home in Atlanta, Georgia throughout the winter months costs about twice as much as air conditioning it in the summer months.

[0]: http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/30576/Heating-or-Cooling-...

Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by jachee on Thursday July 13, 2017 @04:50PM (#14765092)
> an indifference for any sort of sustainability.

That's a pretty apt general description of Las Vegas.

Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by pilom on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:37PM (#14765927)
I would actually put Vegas as one of the most sustainable cities in the US out of necessity. Vegas's per capita water use is about 1/4 of the US average including all of those crazy fountains on the strip. They don't irrigate anything compared to places like Phoenix and almost all municipal water hookups use reclaimed water unlike most other cities where people have an aversion to drinking filtered piss. Vegas also gets almost all of its energy from renewable sources (hydro and a tiny amount of solar) compared to the US as a whole which is only about 10%. Colorado by comparison gets about 60% of it's electricity from coal.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by jachee on Friday July 14, 2017 @05:45PM (#14773443)
Fair enough. Consider me educated. It was a quick jab with only an outsider's superficial perspective.

    s/Las Vegas/Phoenix
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by gnaritas on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:34PM (#14765451)
And Phoenix, and Los Angeles, and much of the southwest in general.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by dragonwriter on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:21PM (#14765835)
The LA Basin is not a desert.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by sjg007 on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:43PM (#14765948)
Technically it is.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by dragonwriter on Thursday July 13, 2017 @07:44PM (#14766264)
Technically, it's still not; it's a dry-summer Mediterranean climate; in the Köppen system, it's a Csb, arid climates are B, Desert is BW with h/k/n in the third position depending on temperature.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by rplst8 on Thursday July 13, 2017 @04:50PM (#14765087)
Having large groups living in mega city heat islands is also an absurd configuration but pretty much the entire world is guilty of that one.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by muninn_ on Thursday July 13, 2017 @04:55PM (#14765148)
Eh, not really. Cities are better for Co2
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by Nelson69 on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:29PM (#14765419)
Is that established? I believe that there are major giant cities that operate with a lower CO2 footprint than suburban and rural areas might, per capita. But there is the cost of all the CO2 that allowed that urbanization; NYC didn't get the subway without a carbon cost, all that steel in the buildings released a lot of carbon, etc..
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by rplst8 on Thursday July 13, 2017 @08:58PM (#14766654)
CO2 per capita is not the only measure of absurdity.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by gnaritas on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:35PM (#14765466)
Because it's not absurd, the advantages of city living are too numerous to count. Your premise is flawed.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by TeMPOraL on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:43PM (#14765536)
> but I'd also argue that having large groups living out in the desert is such an absurd configuration for humans that it presupposes an indifference for any sort of sustainability

They didn't give a damn when those cities were first founded. The issue wasn't probably even on the mind of anyone on the planet. Same is true about cities in seismically-active regions.

It's too late to fix that. You'd have to convince millions to abandon their homes and go... somewhere else.

Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by dragonwriter on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:17PM (#14765800)
> I'd also argue that having large groups living out in the desert is such an absurd configuration for humans that it presupposes an indifference for any sort of sustainability.

It's easier to irrigate a flat desert with fertile soil than to move the flat terrain and fertile soil closer to a water source.

Food production is a fairly important component of sustainable human societies, and a major reason for the US (California particularly) having inhabited deserts and semi-arid regions.

Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by robohamburger on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:25PM (#14765391)
That may be true but desert cities are still a reality. It might be possible somehow "close" these cities but that seems like something that is not going to happen anytime soon unless they simply become uninhabitable. So given people are going to be living here it makes sense to make things more efficient.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by PhasmaFelis on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:45PM (#14765960)
Most desert cities were founded before electricity, let alone air conditioning. Phoenix, Arizona was apparently founded as a farming town, and was quite sustainable at its early population.

You can't stop people from moving and aggregating. Relocating hundreds of millions of people into freshly-built temperate cities is obviously impractical, not to mention more resource-intensive in the short and medium term than air conditioning their current residences. We have to develop techniques that work with the world as it is, not just pine for utopias that might have been.

Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by nostromo on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:35PM (#14765915)
Better to put people in the desert than in places where they displace a lot of existing biodiversity (like, say, all of our coastal cities).
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by astrodust on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:41PM (#14765939)
Not necessarily. These cities have a huge appetite for fresh water and can starve entire ecosystems of it.
Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by wnevets on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:07PM (#14765719)
>what about the deserts in the US that don't have a nearby water source to cool everything.

Maybe people shouldn't live in a desert if can't handle the heat.

Re:Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwi... by vacri on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:22PM (#14765839)
Air conditioning also changes humidity, not just temperature. I imagine few cities in Germany are particularly humid.