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Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by Semaphor on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @01:47PM (#14754719)
I'm not sure if it is because of weird tastes or something else. But for sites like Steam, YT, Netflix I always wish for more tuning parameters because their recommendations are all horrible.

On Netflix, for example, I get recommended stuff that's similar to other things I didn't like.

Amazon is often the best of them for books because their engine seems to only really value the last few things I looked at / bought and so just recommends really similar stuff. Of course, that fails hard whenever I look at something I'm not interested in for whatever reason.

On Steam I wish they had some elaborate filtering system, there are so many games, I need something like NOT(Adventure+Puzzle) BOOST(RPG), I need to combine tags, not just filter them out by themselves.

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by unoti on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:51PM (#14757014)
> for sites like Steam, YT, Netflix I always wish for more tuning parameters because their recommendations are all horrible.

The problem with those recommendation engines is that they're not optimized to serve your needs. They're optimized to serve the goals of their respective companies. And the problem comes when your needs are a little incompatible with the needs of the company.

Consider Netflix for example. Their recommendations don't seem to care much about what you actually enjoy the most. They pay different amounts of money to let you watch different content. So your goal of watching the thing you would enjoy the most is different from whatever the hell their goals are-- probably to get you to watch just enough Netflix to make you not want to cancel your subscription, but not run up their bills on bandwidth and licensing fees.

I'm absolutely confident Netflix could make amazing recommendations-- and probably already has them internally. But it's not in their best interest to give recommendations that are in your best interest.

To the extent that I'm right about this it could be a market opportunity to make an honest and useful recommendation service.

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by sgustard on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:58PM (#14757400)
Netflix has a tiny catalog, so investing in making recommendations from that tiny catalog is mostly wasted. Half of Netflix's business now is House of Cards, so their entire algorithm consists of recommending House of Cards to people who haven't watched it yet, and random content to the others.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by theseatoms on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:35PM (#14757256)
> They're optimized to serve the goals of their respective companies. And the problem comes when your needs are a little incompatible with the needs of the company.

Ultimate they are compatible though. And yes I mean in the econ 101 way. This tension should be at least partially resolved via pricing scheme innovation.

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by eru on Sunday July 16, 2017 @01:41PM (#14783166)
Pricing scheme innovation, and just plain iterated interaction and long term reputation.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by watwut on Thursday July 13, 2017 @07:48AM (#14760501)
Steam would earn more from me if I did not closed it frustrated every time I wanted to buy game. I literally did not bought game because there was no way to filter out stuff I don't like (well defined category in this case).
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by chiefalchemist on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @09:00PM (#14758022)
It's worth noting that satisfaction is also a function of perception. Did you enjoy the movie? Yeah, probably. But then you think about all the possibilities, a small number of which would naturally be better, and an acceptable film fades towards unacceptable.

Regardless of how good the recommendation engine might be, it's still always subject to human perception. That can be unpredictable and fickle, on a good day :)

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by kerbalspacepro on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:00PM (#14755498)
Regarding Amazon:

"Oh, you bought a wallet? Here are twenty wallets of the exact same type but with slightly different colors that you might want to buy, too"

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by lostphilosopher on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:22PM (#14756289)
"Amazon seems to think my recent purchase of an air conditioner was just the gateway to an air conditioner collecting hobby."

That's probably not exact and I don't remember where in my social feeds it came from, but I loved this.

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by badwolf on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:58PM (#14756072)
Buy a Dyson vacuum cleaner on Amazon... For the next several weeks Amazon thinks I've taken up the popular hobby of collecting vacuum cleaners
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by vacri on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:37PM (#14757913)
I once clicked on a 'russian bride' google ad for a laugh, quite a while back. Google still puts lots of russian and filipino bride ads into my 'bubble' to this day...
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by marcuslager on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @11:10PM (#14758454)
You can remove "mistakes" like that from your Google history pretty easily.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by inopinatus on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:47PM (#14756990)
To give some justice to the algorithm, after purchasing my first Dyson I wanted to replace all my vacuum cleaners with Dysen.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by tgb on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:56PM (#14757034)
How many vacuum cleaners do you have?
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by barking on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:56PM (#14757695)
One per house, like everyone else!
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by TheRealDunkirk on Thursday July 13, 2017 @11:53AM (#14762326)
Plebeian.

One per floor per house, of course. You don't want to have to carry them up and down stairs.

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by cestith on Thursday July 13, 2017 @07:40PM (#14766236)
Nouveau riche.

All houses should have one floor. Why use stairs or elevators when you can just buy more land?

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by inopinatus on Thursday July 13, 2017 @10:46PM (#14767045)
The staff are downstairs, and they have their own cleaning equipment.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by freehunter on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:55PM (#14757691)
Not the same person, but I have three. I have a roomba for everyday sweeping, a Bissell for actually cleaning the carpets not just sweeping them, and a Black and Decker handheld for the stairs, the car, and other places it's hard to take a full vacuum or a robot.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by nkrisc on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:14PM (#14756220)
My Amazon homepage is full of stuff I already own. Even worse is their internet-wide remarketing makes it so I see stuff I own on many of the sites I visit.

There was however one moment where Amazon got it right: they recommended to me a book that only a week earlier I had purchased on a whim from an independent bookstore with cash. Creepy good.

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by wfunction on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:32PM (#14757240)
> There was however one moment where Amazon got it right: they recommended to me a book that only a week earlier I had purchased on a whim from an independent bookstore with cash. Creepy good.

That is creepy. Any way it might've been more than just a coincidence?

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by nkrisc on Thursday July 13, 2017 @09:46AM (#14761131)
It's possible, but it was a book in a relatively unusual niche that I have a hobbyist interest in. It was a book about the archaeological and linguistic study of proto-Indo-European people (PIE) and their origins and spread by means of horses and the, at the time novel, wheels. I had previously purchased a book or two on linguistics from Amazon so perhaps there is only a small set of popular books in that category for their recommendation algorithm to pick from.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by wfunction on Thursday July 13, 2017 @04:01PM (#14764666)
Ah, yeah, that would explain it. Thanks!
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by hohenheim on Thursday July 13, 2017 @09:22AM (#14760976)
Well there was this sometime ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14406583

Though that was Google.

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by wlesieutre on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:05PM (#14755563)
I told this story in the recent Amazon recommendations discussion, but I bought a pair of speaker stands from them and before it was even delivered they sent me an email saying "HEY BASED ON YOUR BROWSING HISTORY MAYBE YOU'D LIKE THESE OTHER 10 SPEAKER STANDS!"
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by jon_richards on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:19PM (#14755692)
I've heard the argument that this prevents buyer's remorse. Not sure if it has any merit.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by CodeCube on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:18PM (#14756259)
wait, wouldn't this cause buyer's remorse? like, if I just finally decided to buy some product ... being bombarded with all the other options suddenly makes me rethink my purchase decision, "oh but what if this other one is more gooder!?!?!"
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by jon_richards on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:01PM (#14756644)
I think the argument is cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias generally function to make you more happy with the one you bought already when presented with other alternatives.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by chongli on Thursday July 13, 2017 @01:33AM (#14758952)
I thought that cognitive dissonance was the buyer's remorse. I've experienced that a few times in my life. Now I've got no qualms about immediately taking stuff back.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by sogen on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:50PM (#14756543)
Exactly my thoughts, you might see there something with better/more reviews.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by differonzi on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:46PM (#14755944)
What are the (general) financial consequences of buyer's remorse?
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by njarboe on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:03PM (#14756119)
For Amazon with a generous return policy, when a person has buyer's remorse, they can return the item. Lost sale.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by maxxxxx on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:33PM (#14756392)
Funny story:

A while ago I took an Ayurveda class (Indian medicine) and part of it was doing an oil enema. There are devices for this that are also used by a certain population for sexual pleasures. Bought one on Amazon and for months I couldn't show my Amazon page to other people because it was filled with sex toys....

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by birdman3131 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:30PM (#14756875)
It is possible to delete things from your amazon history. https://www.amazon.com/gp/history
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by type0 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:57PM (#14757041)
And the lesson here would be not to get involved with Ayrveda.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by freehunter on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:57PM (#14757704)
Or more specifically, not pour random fluids into your butt for some mystical health benefit. Only for pleasure.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by maxxxxx on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @09:39PM (#14758168)
Actually I would recommend it. It's quite nice :-)
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by Semaphor on Thursday July 13, 2017 @07:03AM (#14760268)
My favorite sleeping mask is made by Joy Division, a blindfold sold as a sex toy. When I replace it every 1-2 years (or earlier in case I was on a flight…) my Amazon page is full of sex toys ;)
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by lostlogin on Thursday July 13, 2017 @02:09PM (#14763677)
How do they get away with that brand name?
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by drizzzler on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:31PM (#14757875)
lol
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by afarrell on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:34PM (#14756909)
The fact that Amazon doesn't have a way to recommend complimentary products ("oh, you just bought a tent? You probably want some bug spray") boggles.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by fletchowns on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:46PM (#14756980)
Isn't that what the "frequently bought together" suggestions are?
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by freehunter on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:58PM (#14757708)
Yeah but they should show that in the recommendations, not just when I'm at the product page.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by Semaphor on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:25PM (#14755758)
For books this works pretty well for me as I tend to read genres in bursts. If I just read a scifi books, I'll read a bunch more before going back to fantasy ;)
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by ballenf on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:29PM (#14756863)
The equivalent for books would be "you might like this paperback copy or a large print version of the book you just purchased along with 3 other editions!"
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by patmcguire on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:24PM (#14756309)
It's probably correct by expected value. You're just not the multiple wallet type. I'm sure there are people who'd want five wallets, eight different shoe styles, multiple cuts of pants...

Your indifference is subsumed in the sheer size of others' consumption.

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by kerbalspacepro on Thursday July 13, 2017 @10:50AM (#14761704)
You're right that there are categories of products that this absolutely works. When I buy clothes, books, media... even tech, then I probably will buy something related. But there are some "one-off" purchases that Amazon doesn't need to hound be about.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by phkahler on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:07PM (#14756695)
Dude it's a wallet not a coach purse.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by freehunter on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:02PM (#14757724)
I have multiple wallets. I have one I take on business trips that contains my work ID, American Express, business cards, etc. All stuff I normally don't carry with me. I have an everyday wallet with cash and my bank card and stuff I need everyday. And if I'm dressing up, I don't want to ruin the lines of my suit so I have a far slimmer wallet that just has my ID and space for one credit card.

I mean I'm not accessorizing with the latest seasonal fashions, but there are utility reasons to change the kind of wallet you're carrying for different purposes.

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by crowbahr on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @02:31PM (#14755189)
Netflix, I think, has killed their own recommendation algorithm when they removed stars and made it boolean. I don't know if those buttons even do anything anymore because I think they're just matching based off demographic and who they're trying to market to now. It's recommending shows that I never would watch in a million years and giving them high matches despite me disliking most similar shows just because I'm a 20-something male.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by fritzw on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:31PM (#14756371)
I think Netflix probably did it because people are inherently bad at being objective. For the average person, 2 stars for a movie and 4 for another isn't based on anything measurable, even they couldn't explain. I'm shocked at some of the amazon product reviews, most of which are 5 star reviews even if the product is absolutely terrible. Movies are different than products, but it's the same people doing the reviewing. Remember, the average user is not a thinking analytical HN user. Average people are much better at bool choices.

Whether the buttons do anything, I have no idea

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by ballenf on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:33PM (#14756898)
I know I'm in the minority here, but I am a big fan of the new system. I would torture myself trying to decide between, e.g., 3 or 4 stars for movie. And then go back and re-rate other movies that I realized I liked more but rated lower than the just-rated movie.

Their % match numbers are fairly accurate, but I have had to go into the watch history and delete the occasional movie watched and finished that we actually hated. No number of 1-stars (or thumbs downs) would eradicate its effects on the recommendations.

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by jimbobimbo on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:36PM (#14757596)
My system was (and is, in DVDs):

  5 - Absolutely loved it, will buy a disc
  4 - Good, but won't buy a disc
  3 - Movie was okay
  2 - Not a good movie
  1 - Stopped watching 20 minutes into it
My problem with binary choice is that 1 == 2 and 3 == 4 == 5, whilst 1 and 5 were very special for me. :(
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by nol13 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:35PM (#14757593)
Plus the scale bias differing vastly between people and cultures makes the data a mess. Like say or me a 5 means 100% perfect, Why discreet choice stuff is all the rage in the market research world. (unless that's changed in last few years)

Asking people "which of these 3 things you like best" vs. "rate these 3 things 1-5" will usually give you much more useful data, plus be easier for respondents.

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by JacobiX on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:47PM (#14757341)
Popular recommendation algorithm like collaborative filtering by matrix factorization takes into account the accounts for user and item biases (the simplest method is to normalize the ratings of a particular user by the average of ratings of that user).
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by tomc1985 on Thursday July 13, 2017 @09:14PM (#14766717)
Couldn't you control for that by weighting people's ratings by the range in which they provide them? Like weighting a 5-star review a bit more from someone who averages 3's than someone whose ratings average 4's? Far from perfect sure but I bet it could save a lot of results from needing to be thrown out.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by thinkingemote on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:59PM (#14757050)
With stars you can cross compare with others to see if they have the same score. With simple thumbs up recommendations you cannot compare the ratings as the score is whether it appears to you or not.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by eru on Sunday July 16, 2017 @05:14PM (#14784141)
If what you say is true, that's an argument in favor of eg aggregating via median instead of average.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by fitzroy on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:41PM (#14755902)
I have to wonder if Netflix did this because a lot of their original or exclusive content seems to debut to mediocre star ratings. When the new system says "x% match" I assume that value is derived more from genre match or search relevance than whether I'll actually like it or not.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by swenn on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:18PM (#14755687)
Interesting experience, I recently read an article that gave me the impression that they rather improved the system.

Excerpt from https://www.appcues.com/blog/rating-system-ux-star-thumbs/

"In addition to the new rating system, Netflix has new match percentages (up to 100%) to more accurately predict how much users will like something.

...

The new rating system received 200% more ratings in A/B tests, according to Netflix VP of Product Todd Yellin.

When it comes to rating movies and shows, stars reflect the preferences that people want to have, rather than how people actually behave. Todd gave the example of users giving 5 stars to a documentary but just 3 stars to an Adam Sandler movie that they watched over and over again. “What you do versus what you say you like are different things,” said Todd."

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by dkarl on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:29PM (#14756357)
If Netflix was trying to ensure that what I was mostly likely to watch next had the highest star rating, no wonder they gave up on it. Our opinion of the quality of something is not a good predictor of our likelihood of watching it.

Their users are surely not confused about that. So why does Netflix want to present a prediction as a rating? Is it to flatter their users by telling them that the thing that feels instantly gratifying right now is actually an amazing movie? "Hey, great choice. Billy Madison is a five-star movie. What? Why would you feel bad about not watching Raging Bull instead? It's a two-and-a-half star movie at best."

In other words, Netflix, like Facebook, like Doritos, is engineering itself for maximum addictiveness without regard for honesty. It will shelter you from even what you know and reassure you that whatever triggers a pleasure response in your brain is the best. Relax and enjoy it.

The truth is that we consume easy things a lot more often than we challenging things. It would be exhausting otherwise. But the best things are often the most challenging. We know that, we know that easy movies are just a way to kill time, but Netflix wants to do us the service of helping us forget it, because then we might be 1% more at ease when we watch Netflix and 1% less likely to switch to another service.

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by scythe on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:29PM (#14755787)
>When it comes to rating movies and shows, stars reflect the preferences that people want to have, rather than how people actually behave. Todd gave the example of users giving 5 stars to a documentary but just 3 stars to an Adam Sandler movie that they watched over and over again. “What you do versus what you say you like are different things,” said Todd."

There's a reasonable objection to this behavioral definition of "like", which is that it doesn't actually make people's lives better, it just fills them with more compulsive behavior. It's not necessarily "irrational" to wish you were more patient, or to want to ask Netflix to show you useful things rather than useless fluff. That you occasionally betray your stated goals does not mean you should be denied the right of self-definition.

In other words, what people say they like is more important, to me at least. See eg "Thinking Fast and Slow" by Kahneman.

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by ryanmaclean on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:13PM (#14755641)
I can't agree more - I'm a huge proponent for star rating systems. I get that they are perhaps more complicated than a Boolean value, but they help me out personally.

I miss the days of "tap tap scroll four clicks" on the iPod to help me rate new music, specifically.

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by freehunter on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:06PM (#14757742)
Thumbs up/down might not be the best for training a recommendation engine, but as someone who just switched his product's rating system from 1-5 to simple up/down, let me tell you: people have no idea how to use a star rating system. I would get people raving but leave a 1 star review, some people would leave a 5 star review and say bad things, some would leave a 1 star review but seem pretty neutral in their review.

A person is smart. People in general are dumb.

Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by jandrese on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:00PM (#14755497)
Netflix's recommendation system is only good at recommending Netflix shows now.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by alistairSH on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:12PM (#14755634)
Or movies I watched last week. Sigh.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by chiefalchemist on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:56PM (#14758006)
All the technology hype aside, it often feels as if these feed prediction algorithms are akin to weather forecasting. That is, there not forecasting per se, but taking educated guesses based on some set of knowns. The problem is correlation is not cause.
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by softawre on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:35PM (#14756921)
Steam itself doesn't have filtering like that but third-party sites do. Try: https://steamdb.info/
Re:The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem by Semaphor on Thursday July 13, 2017 @07:09AM (#14760301)
Yeah, I know steamdb. Didn't know they had such a search though and looking there I can't find it, got a direct link?