News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by ErikAugust on Monday July 10, 2017 @03:38PM (#14738963)
I run ultras and mountain races. I ran one this Friday night into Saturday morning - a 12 hour overnight trail race where I managed 100K (62mi) in 11 hours and 23 minutes.

Anyway, let's throw out willpower and even genetics for a second so I can bring up something: In today's age, virtually no one is even remotely close to their physiological limits.

Literally, hundreds of people (elite marathoners, a few ultra marathoners, cross country skiiers) out of billions of people are bumping up against physiology. These people will do anything for the smallest performance gains (1%).

Really, if you have not achieved a level where you are ~5-8% body fat and run consistently at 100 miles (or more) a week, you are not anywhere that close. Trust me. This is kind of even standard for competitive college distance runners - and even they are likely making mistakes that hold back their development (diet, drinking, running too many miles at too fast of a pace, etc.)

Yet we can take someone who is 20% body fat, and runs 10 miles a week. You will find this person finishing an 100 mile ultramarathon. It's not that uncommon, if the time cutoffs are liberal. 18 minute miles is walking pace.

The author even mentions he didn't think he was obese. He just didn't know the reality of things, I'd argue. He had to have this concept of willpower (concentration) to learn. And to change his diet and training habits. And even his understanding of what is possible.

It's magical to chalk things up to grit - but there is so much process of knowing how the lows feel during a race, what to eat while training, how fast to do each run while training, how much to run while training, how to stay hydrated while racing, how to get nutrition while racing, etc.

"Tough" or "in control of self" to me is too emotionally loaded.

Edit: I almost feel bad writing this because it takes some of the magic that gets marketed about it. But this is a science-oriented crowd and should be exciting to know there is more of an opportunity for the objective than a lot of people believe.

Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by tbenst on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:51PM (#14739539)
I ran at an elite D1 collegiate program. The vast majority of runners will get injured at 100 miles per week, assuming a reasonable pace no slower than 7 min / mile. Slower than that is not useful training for Olympic events. Our top runner was a 13:30 5k and 29:20 10k at 70-80 miles per week.

Ultras are a different beast entirely, as its more of a "survival" test of muscles, ligaments, and bones than that of sustained running performance--even top ultramarathoners will walk during races. Ultras are about physiological limits of our bodies to handle stress; the 2-hour marathon is about the physiological limits of running.

Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by ErikAugust on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:57PM (#14739599)
"Slower than that is not useful training for Olympic events."

Lydiard-ians would disagree - at least for a base phase.

But I will agree that if you are running even 7min/miles for your easy and recovery runs, many get injured at 100 miles a week. Many do. And that disrupts their development in the worst way possible!

Interesting article on that: http://www.letsrun.com/news/2006/09/wejo-speaks-why-i-sucked...

But sure, I also agree - ultras versus marathons are different types of limits. Or mountain races versus marathons versus something like an ultra like Badwater.

Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by juli1pb on Monday July 10, 2017 @11:05PM (#14741308)
I agreed with your argumentation... until you linked letsrun :)
Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by ErikAugust on Monday July 10, 2017 @11:50PM (#14741450)
Hahha oh come on - Weldon makes a strong case.
Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by sushisource on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:12PM (#14739227)
Yeah, it's a little frustrating to have some person say to me "Oh yeah, I ran a marathon too!". Ok, yeah, you completed it... six hours slower than I did. You walked a marathon.

I'd disagree though that the grit/toughness thing to me is too emotional. My marathon time is 3:38 - reasonably fast for an amateur, but nothing blazing. ~8 minute pace. I know that getting that time faster is 100% about my commitment level. I know I could be faster, but I just don't want to invest the time and pain in it. I enjoy running, but I'm not trying to be super competitive.

So I think it is emotional for 99.9% of people. Only those .1% of people you mentioned are hitting the physical limits, as you said.

In other words, I agree with your facts, but I think the interpretation is wrong (or I'm misunderstanding). The key ingredient is the willpower, the consistency, and that comes from an emotional place.

Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by proee on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:50PM (#14739538)
Well then I'm sure it's frustrating when a professional who runs a Marathon in close to 2 hours, hears you say the same thing.
Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by LeifCarrotson on Monday July 10, 2017 @05:30PM (#14739877)
I'm no 2-hour-marathon pro, just a has-been mediocre collegiate runner, but there's some understanding of the effort levels and dedication that are required, no matter the accomplishments. But there are runners, and there are joggers, and there are joggers that call themselves runners and post "26.2" stickers on their cars.

By analogy, there's a difference between an HN celebrity, someone who does programming for a living at a typical skill level, and someone who claims to be an engineer - but cannot complete FizzBuzz.

Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by bitexploder on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @06:29AM (#14742946)
Marathons are harder for people who run them in 4 hours (assuming they tried as hard as they could). They are on their feet longer, and have to coerce their mind to push that much longer. It is just a different race for mid and back of the packers. Further, training is much the same. You might run 50-60 miles in a week because you can go faster. A slower runner might dedicate 30 or 40% more of their time to achieve that many miles. It takes the same mental effort to run at a 4 RPE (RATING PERCEIVED EFFORT on a scale of 1-5) as it does for an elite. The elite just has genetics on their side. I used to feel much the same way you do, but truly those "joggers" slogging out a 4 or 5 hour marathon giving it their all after months of running 9+ hours per week. They are runners too.

Ultras are also far less populated by folks with an elitist running mentality. It is more about being in nature and a personal journey, which is why Ultra appeals to a certain crowd. Olympians and the guy down the road have more in common with their running experience than not.

Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by mnm1 on Monday July 10, 2017 @10:52PM (#14741262)
I'd hardly compare someone jogging a marathon to someone who can't complete FizzBuzz. There's no way in hell most people who aren't in shape are even going to walk that, let alone jog 26.2 miles. It clearly takes a lot of training to jog, run, or even walk a marathon. Some people are slow. That in no way detracts from their accomplishment or the work they have to put in to get there. I'd say the winner of the marathon and the jogger accomplished pretty much the same thing. As long as they fulfilled their own goals--some of which might not include a set max time goal--the finish time is irrelevant.
Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by proee on Monday July 10, 2017 @07:28PM (#14740493)
Perhaps, but from my own personal experience, I missed out on some big entrepreneurial opportunities because I considered people below my skill level to be insignificant. The Arduino platform came out years ago, and I continuously dismissed it because I did not consider it a "real" embedded development platform. Yet, the platform exploded and lots of neat things resulted from the platform. In hindsight, I should have embraced the platform and realized that not everyone is a professional hardware designer. Now that my outlook has changed, if someone tells me they used an Arduino, I'm going to refrain from judgement and instead look at the bigger picture of who they are and congratulate them on taking the first step into hardware.
Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by ErikAugust on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:20PM (#14739292)
It may be semantics - I think I agree with your statement. The desire to not only know what it takes to be great, but to execute on that has its origins in emotion, at least. There has to be motivation for it as it's obviously not necessary to survive, haha.
Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by rimliu on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:39PM (#14739439)
I walk a marathon in about 6 hours and 12 minutes. Do you run it in 12 minutes?
Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by logicallee on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:13PM (#14739229)
>Literally, hundreds of people (elite marathoners, a few ultra marathoners, cross country skiiers) out of billions of people are bumping up against physiology

The human race didn't fight tooth and nail for 40,000 years to give everyone education, a code of laws and civilization, safe lives that include both work and leisure, so that I could bump into the limits of my physiology. How is that a normative goal?

There are no mountain lions chasing me whose escape pushes me to the limits of human physiology - and I for one prefer to keep it that way!

Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by gaius on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:21PM (#14739302)
fight tooth and nail for 40,000 years to give everyone education

On the one hand that's true but on the other hand, the vast majority of people aren't operating at their theoretical mental limit either, either way a vast amount of wasted potential.

Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by steaknsteak on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:57PM (#14739592)
I don't think very many people are interested in achieving their theoretical mental limit any more than their physical limit. What would be the purpose of that? Diminishing returns applies to nearly every endeavor. Unless you are so preoccupied with a single goal that practically nothing else matters, you will always sacrifice some potential improvement on any goal to make room for the other important aspects of your life.
Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by nicky0 on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:20PM (#14739290)
You're probably one of those people who would happily exist as a brain in a jar wired directly to the internet.
Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by logicallee on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:47PM (#14739507)
nah, exercises 2-3 days per week is great. Not going to bring me to the limits of my physiology though :)
Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by LeifCarrotson on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:36PM (#14739416)
There's a significant distinction between racing at the limits of your physiology and the limits of your commitment to the sport and your training going into the race.

I think the latter may be more interesting and useful: not many can afford the time commitment to eating, sleeping, and training to the max. But when a high-school kid takes 30 seconds off his 1600m PR in the meet with the rival school? That's just because he didn't know he had more available.

Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by ErikAugust on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:41PM (#14739464)
Certainly a fascinating component.

There is also the case of the people who can rise above what their physiological markers predict, somewhat consistently - and then conversely, people who are strikingly under performing.

Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by gaius on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:18PM (#14739272)
hundreds of people (elite marathoners, a few ultra marathoners, cross country skiiers)

I'd add elite soldiers to that list, which would take it up to tens of thousands maybe.

Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by ErikAugust on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:24PM (#14739326)
Sure - I could go with thousands... and maybe tens of thousands.
Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by gaius on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:29PM (#14739348)
SAS, SEALs, Spetsnaz... it wouldn't be a long list!
Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by kamaal on Monday July 10, 2017 @11:52PM (#14741460)
All this ultramarathon running looks like a cake walk when compared to the "Hell week" in Navy SEALs training.
Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by gaius on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @12:16AM (#14741542)
Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by tedmc on Monday July 10, 2017 @05:41PM (#14739939)
Sure, experience is a factor (and GMA helps with this), but training when you're tired, but need to, when you don't want to, or when you're sore from the speedwork or doing a b2b run takes self control. Not putting the wrong things in your mouth, takes self control. In a race, it takes self control to not go out too fast, to eat when nothing looks appetizing, and to keep moving when aid stations look like bombs went off from all the people laying down.

Badwater is (more) brutal now that it has a night start, and experience only counts for so much...

Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by runamok on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @02:49AM (#14742089)
100 miles a week will tax the bio-mechanics of most people in the first world. Granted doing those 100 miles at 10 min/mile is far, far easier than doing it at 6:00 to 7:00 pace. And doing lots of LSD (long slow distance) DOES have proven physiological effects.

But please don't treat 100 mile weeks as some trivial task. I have been running for > 25 years and have run from a 4:40 mile to a 2:44 marathon and 1:15 half and my max week was 84. I was doing consistent 70 mile weeks in college for a while and finally couldn't continue due to injury.

I do agree with your core point that most people have no idea what their true limits are. I have seen friends who hated to lose pass out at the finish line of a race. I find I don't even improve until I hit about 40 miles a week with at least one LT run of 4 to 6 miles and a >= 13 mile long run. That only takes about 4 to 5 hours a week (not including extra showers, drives to runs, necessary strength work, etc.) I guarantee most spend far more than that on Netflix et al.

P.S. Congrats on your race!

Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by kentt on Monday July 10, 2017 @03:55PM (#14739086)
> 18 minute miles is walking pace.

Thank you for pointing this out. I'm so sick if people telling me they ran a marathon only to find out they walked. I'm totally fine with that being an accomplishment to finish, but it's entirely dissimilar to those who were racing.

Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by rickpmg on Monday July 10, 2017 @05:28PM (#14739861)
What an elitist comment. People do marathons for different reasons. Time is just one factor. Some people actually (gasp) do marathons to prove something to _themselves_.

It's one thing to be proud of your own time, it's entirely unsportsmanlike to criticize someone not as good as you.

Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by kentt on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @12:39PM (#14745618)
I understand what you're getting at but I think you may have misunderstood me. Being able to run a marathon in 3 hours probably meant you set aside a hour or two, 5 times a week for years. Walking a marathon in 7 hours means that your in the sort of shape that is required to not die early from being sedentary.

If you tell me you RAN a marathon, I'll think that you RAN a marathon. If you walked a marathon and you think that's a great accomplishment (and it very well may be), I'm also very happy for you. But it's not the same thing. Conflating the two is dishonest and devalues what others are doing. It's the difference between building a website as a fullstack dev vs building one using Square Space. It's not that there's anything wrong with Square Space, but if you tell me your a software engineer afterwards, I'll think of you the same way I think of marathon walkers who tell me they ran a marathon.

Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by atom-morgan on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:12PM (#14739218)
Marathons? I have people tell me this for 5ks.
Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by tedmc on Monday July 10, 2017 @07:38PM (#14740529)
It is racing for them.
Re:Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science ... by ErikAugust on Monday July 10, 2017 @03:41PM (#14738990)
Look at the consistently great 100 mile trail runners in the US - Ian Sharman, or Jeff Browning. Year after year. Look at how thorough they are. They are coaches because they know what to do and then they execute.