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Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by captainmuon on Monday July 10, 2017 @11:39AM (#14736910)
I think we should really fix society before we develop that kind of technology. We need a socio-cultural breaktrough of the same magnitude as the technological breakthrough. Something on par with the development of monotheism, enlightenment, capitalism, or democracy. A "communistic" utopia (for lack of a better word) without the flaws of its historical implementations. Then the question is moot. There is no private business, or indeed any other entity, government or private, that you would make such a deal with. There is no second party that wants to withhold technology, or steal your thoughts. Rather it will be "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" - you get the augmentation for free, and you contribute what you feel comfortable sharing back to society.

Often, utopia is portrayed as the result of a technolocial breakthrough, sometimes "if we could read each others thoughts there would be no misunderstanding and conflict". I believe it is the other way around - utopia is a precondition for singularity-type technology. At least, if we want it to be beneficial and not hellish.

Brain implants are easy, communism is going to be hard.

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by sillysaurus3 on Monday July 10, 2017 @11:47AM (#14736984)
I agree. Once we develop the ability to upload and modify brains, it will be easy to morph them. We can extract the primal desire to defend yourself, to become angry, to want to own property. These emotions will be reserved for the founders.

It will take time to get there. Many will resist, so we have to keep our goal a secret. But people are gullible. With our morphogenic brain technology, we can give people experiences they've only dreamed of. Think of it. The high of heroin, with none of the downsides. The ability to know instantly when any of your loved ones are in distress. The ability to shape yourself and your children into any form you desire.

If we appeal to base emotions, if we appeal to their need to control, to own, to shape, then we can implement our plan.

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by ghurtado on Monday July 10, 2017 @02:28PM (#14738435)
I hope you're being 100% sarcastic.

If you're not, I must ask: is your name Andrew Ryan perchance?

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by lossolo on Monday July 10, 2017 @12:06PM (#14737154)
> Many will resist, so we have to keep our goal a secret.

This is not democracy. Every dictatorship begins with "I know better what is good for you than you do".

You should watch movie "Equilibrium" with Christian Bale. I don't think you really want that, it only sounds good in theory.

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by sillysaurus3 on Monday July 10, 2017 @12:08PM (#14737180)
Well, it was firmly tongue in cheek. :) I've been thinking of trying to write some short stories pulling from various themes in technology. Most ideas have been done to death, but with a bit of skill it might be possible to write something worth reading.

A tangent, but: I've been wondering how a novelist builds their skill. They're not born with it. One idea would be to watch a movie and write it like a book, transcribing it scene for scene. I'm not sure whether that'd help, though.

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by SubiculumCode on Monday July 10, 2017 @01:10PM (#14737766)
No ideas about the second, but an aside on the first.

'Most ideas have been done to death' is a central reason I have stopped reading novels that much. Ah its one of those, he will do this. Ah yes, I see the twist. its one of those.

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by bllguo on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:20PM (#14739295)
I highly empathize with this. These days I'm just interested in imagination. I don't care if a book or novel or movie is good. I will most likely never consume it. I'm looking up synopses and scanning them for innovative ideas.
Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by hellbanner on Monday July 10, 2017 @12:17PM (#14737272)
Re tangent: Steven King's "on writing" or Ray Bradbury's "en in the art of writing"

write 1000 words a day, be crap for decades, eventually you get skilled.

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by frenchie4111 on Monday July 10, 2017 @12:46PM (#14737549)
The other, and much more likely in my opinion, future is that developing this kind of technology will cause us to "fix" our society, or rather society will grow to support the new technology. It is unlikely that private business will relinquish it's control willingly, we must aim for a future that makes private business irrelevant (massive automation removing the need for humans to "pay" for anything)
Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by WalterBright on Monday July 10, 2017 @02:09PM (#14738293)
I'm curious why you worry about control by business, but not control by the government?
Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by thinkfurther on Monday July 10, 2017 @05:49PM (#14739995)
My government, in theory, derives every last bit if its power from my consent and the consent of my peers; and in so far practice diverges from that, that can be corrected or at least discussed. Even foreign governments at least have that relation with someone, even if they don't have it with me. With private enterprises, there isn't even anything to correct or discuss from their perspective. They're "pure tyrannies", as Chomsky put it, while governments are theoretically democratic. The magic free market turning selfish bastards fighting each other instead of entropy into some useful force doesn't seem to be enough just by itself.

Though now that I think of it, if people got their shit together in the ways required to kick their own governments in the dick where required, that would also translate to paying attention with how we vote with our wallets (it also would translate to any corp trying just one line of cutesy marketing-speak of sinking to the bottom before you can say iceberg, which would improve the world by orders of magnitude within one week), so in the end maybe "capitalism or communism", or anything of that nature, matters much less than the individuals do... after all you can't polish turds, and you don't need to array gold nicely for it to shine.

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by WalterBright on Monday July 10, 2017 @06:07PM (#14740113)
The rookie cop his first day on the job has more power over you than Bill Gates does.
Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by thinkfurther on Monday July 10, 2017 @06:17PM (#14740173)
When someone misses a train because of some forced Windows update, they just call the police and they force Bill Gates to fix that right up.

How about this instead, just imagine I'm so dumb that you have to spell your point out fully. I don't get what you're trying to say, what rookie cop? A specific one, or "the" rookie cop, every single one? And who is Bill Gates? If it's not worth spelling it out for you it's not worth trying to speculate for me.

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by thinkfurther on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @08:34AM (#14743571)
After I pointed out I don't believe in the dichotomy, the reply is something that apparently is supposed to be an argument for it. But you don't have a fixed amount of resources you spend on either being afraid of the government or corporations, and any amount of reclaiming your dignity as a critically thinking and responsibly acting human person will help with both "threats".

To not even acknowledge that, and go "but government", or "but corporations", really means at this point I need you to rephrase my whole comment in your own words to believe you did more than scan it. (That goes for the person downvoting me asking you to elaborate, too. If it's soooo obvious to you, make with the goods.)

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by frenchie4111 on Monday July 10, 2017 @08:58PM (#14740851)
I don't really see those as different entities. Governments are just businesses with a different name. I pay them for a service.
Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by imron on Monday July 10, 2017 @11:42AM (#14736934)
> communism is going to be hard.

Not if everyone has brain implants!

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by captainmuon on Monday July 10, 2017 @11:48AM (#14736991)
Touché. That's why I'm not getting a brain implant :-D
Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by eberkund on Monday July 10, 2017 @01:20PM (#14737873)
"if we could read each others thoughts there would be no misunderstanding and conflict"

For that to be true you have to assume that everyone has enough empathy to come to agreement. It isn't really much different from the way things are now (without being able to read each other's thoughts).

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by AndrewKemendo on Monday July 10, 2017 @12:42PM (#14737519)
You've got it backwards. Our brains are what is holding society back.

We need a socio-cultural breaktrough of the same magnitude as the technological breakthrough

That's what transhumanism is. It's a restructuring of the human system around symbiosis with AI.

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by aivijay on Monday July 10, 2017 @02:16PM (#14738350)
"It's a restructuring of the human system around symbiosis with AI".

This sounds more like to basically have a socio-cultural breakthrough, you want a technological entity (some AI or whatever it turns out to be in the future) to control and direct human socio-cultural thoughts and execution. Transhumanism seems to be more oriented towards equipping humans to be interfaced(through some HCI - human computer interface) with computers around an AI, and other human built accessories (atleast for now) to enhance their mental abilities to project them as more powerful humans. One question is, how much do we actually know the power of our brain and abilities, if its properly used rather than enhancing with computers etc., Yes, there are great use-cases for HCI. But giving control to an AI to make your decisions or control humans in the name of technological break through is absurd.

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by AndrewKemendo on Monday July 10, 2017 @02:21PM (#14738396)
you want a technological entity (some AI or whatever it turns out to be in the future) to control and direct human socio-cultural thoughts and execution.

Yes exactly!

Transhumanism seems to be more oriented towards equipping humans to be interfaced(through some HCI - human computer interface) with computers around an AI, and other human built accessories (atleast for now) to enhance their mental abilities to project them as more powerful humans.

It's currently sold that way, yes, but I don't see it that way. I envision it more like what I have been told/read about is the "Borg" from Star Trek (admittedly I've never seen it).

But giving control to an AI to make your decisions or control humans in the name of technological break through is absurd.

As absurd now as walking around on the moon was in the 1st Century.

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by aivijay on Monday July 10, 2017 @02:35PM (#14738500)
"As absurd now as walking around on the moon was in the 1st Century."

Yes true(wonder why we don't shuttle down to the moon since we landed half a century ago and still never went back???), it is going to be absurd till we have an AI which is as capable(or even half as capable) as much as a human and we can debug that AI or maybe that AI debug's itself reflexively. Till then, I would say its absurd anytime to think that an AI could take control of a human and guide the human in its actions. Till then, I will keep my brain intact and keep away from any AI implants or any kind of implant altogether).

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by AndrewKemendo on Monday July 10, 2017 @02:41PM (#14738547)
I don't think we need superhuman AGI to start having AI guide human actions. We already let AI guide us in daily life all the time, navigation, purchasing recommendations etc...

It's not a question of IF we will have AI direct our behavior, it's just a question of scale.

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by aivijay on Monday July 10, 2017 @02:59PM (#14738682)
I understand, we use AI in one form or another in our daily lives. But for very specific and specialized narrow cases. As you mentioned, its that scale that matters which our brain does seamlessly and us as the generation with AI builders around, we are no where anything to perform in scale with an AI except very specialized tasks. It naturally will improve over time, but AI attaining AGI status and maybe taking control over socio-economic or socio-cultural changes would be a long shot unless we humans don't destroy ourselves by destroying life on earth.
Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by captainmuon on Monday July 10, 2017 @01:25PM (#14737936)
We are somewhat offtopic, but: That sounds a bit like the church in the middle ages saying: "your sins are what is holding society back, that is why you can't have nice things". Or like many utopians, who wanted to create a "better man". Or their detractors, who said utopia doesn't work because people are flawed.

I don't want to change people, I want to change society.

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by AndrewKemendo on Monday July 10, 2017 @02:09PM (#14738291)
I don't want to change people, I want to change society.

Somehow you think those are different things and I'm not sure why. Society only changes when enough people individually change. You can force change through government or coercion, but it's temporary and unsustainable.

utopia doesn't work because people are flawed.

Right, I'd agree with that.

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by captainmuon on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:46PM (#14739495)
What I mean is, I don't want Utopia for some kind of Adornoian "liberated human" or socialist übermensch, I want an Utopia in which I myself can live. Despite my flawed socialisation and biology. I think we can refactor society, instead of reforming or revolutionizing it. Keep the same people, don't coerce them into anything. Don't wait for future technological improvements, but reap the benefits of centuries of previous improvements. We have been technically able to satisfy the needs of everybody from a purely material point of view for decades now. Now we need to fix the allocation of these goods, and the crisis of political representation (or the lack thereof for many people).
Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by AndrewKemendo on Monday July 10, 2017 @06:16PM (#14740165)
I personally think that is impossible. It would be like training a rat to sing opera. We don't fundamentally have the hardware that would allow it.

We have been technically able to satisfy the needs of everybody from a purely material point of view for decades now.

"Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need but not every man's greed" - Gandhi

Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by synicalx on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @12:34AM (#14741599)
Mass starvation and large-scale 'cleansings' will probably be a hard sell if the only upside is "Everyone can read your mind".
Re:Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons by k_lander on Monday July 10, 2017 @05:56PM (#14740053)
i don't think any technology should be put on hold because society isn't perfect especially when said technology has the potential to improve society immensely.