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Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by meej on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @01:13PM (#14704234)
"You’re victimising me when you do that. You’re indicating that it’s most likely I need special, extra support. Just because I’m female."

This is exactly how I felt during my Microsoft internship in 1998 when the internal women's organization, HOPPERS, decided to change their successful "intern buddy" program from opt-in to opt-out. (Well, not really opt-out, because until I got upset with them about it they clearly never considered that anyone might want to opt out.) Despite being only one of two women, both interns, on a team of 40 people, I never felt anything other than welcomed by my team and never felt singled out or harassed because of my gender. As such, I felt quite insulted by the assumption that I needed an "intern buddy" just because I'm a woman in a male-dominated field. A long email thread with the head of the organization ensued, and in the end I did not have the intern buddy that I never asked for in the first place.

I wholeheartedly support the self-organization of underrepresented groups to create safe spaces. However, when participation in such efforts is compelled by things like special awards for members of underrepresented groups in tech or being assigned an "intern buddy" without your knowledge or consent just because you are a member of an underrepresented group, that's not a safe space. That's a ghetto.

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by tomc1985 on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @03:00PM (#14705205)
Thank you for helping me find the right word to describe what most of these diversity, minority outreach programs look like -- ghettoization. It seems that many are more interested in highlighting the presence of minorities in their midst than actually rethinking their conduct. It makes most of the initiatives and discussions here on HN look like a sham.

If I were an affected minority (I am a minority but not in any of the ways that are currently fashionable) I would not want to be highlighted because I am a minority. That is treating people like they are animals in a zoo. What I would want to see is people like me quietly working in their field and really, truly appearing (and being) equal to their peers.

Which is amazing, in a way, that that even needs to be specified. That the majority is so incapable of empathizing with their peers and it seems the only visible response is to highlight "diversity" by pointing to diversity hires. Gag -- WASPs :/

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by atom-morgan on Thursday July 06, 2017 @08:04AM (#14709697)
> I would not want to be highlighted because I am a minority.

I feel the exact same way. Unfortunately, my opinion is often dismissed on this issue because I'm half white or my minority representation isn't underrepresented enough.

Meanwhile many people in tech, specifically women and URMs, who have spent so much time focusing on them being a women or URM in tech are now upset that they're being viewed as just that.

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by tuna-piano on Thursday July 06, 2017 @12:17AM (#14708096)
I was on a United flight a year or two ago, and before the flight they showed a video that was all female United employees talking about how United cared about women, and how women at United were pilots, and women were maintenance people, and how women made United work!

If I had a daughter I wouldn't want her to see that video. I think I would literally cover her eyes and ears. Sure, it's helpful for a little girl to know that there are female pilots. But I think that a kid seeing that kind of propaganda just helps build a complex for thinking women are less than men and need to make videos like that.

I'm a short guy, within the bottom few percentile of male height in the US. Being this short has been highly correlated with decreased wages and significant decreases in attractiveness. Can you imagine a video with a lot of short people saying "X company values short people. You short people can do whatever you want. Us short people are strong together. See, short people can become executives!" Makes me sick just thinking about it.

How do any women at all support this kind of thing?

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by solidsnack9000 on Thursday July 06, 2017 @02:17AM (#14708488)
That is a really interesting comparison. I never thought of that.

I'm white and male and live in the US. But I am also short and suddenly understood things a different way, reading what you wrote.

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by jxramos on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @03:16PM (#14705312)
Her follow up sentence... "You’re also indicating that “this is a women’s problem, best solved by women” but that deepens the divide, creating an “us” and a “them”. Just based on gender…" I also find just as provocative. She's flipping the narrative very effectively with these short punchy hard to miss articulations. I remember feeling taken for granted with some other special help recruitment Facebook dished out for seemingly unrepresented groups. It was totally not my thing and turned out to sour my impression of the company.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by unidentified103 on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @06:22PM (#14706592)
I don't quite understand how a corporate policy like an "intern buddy" can be compared to a ghetto or even how it remotely hurts you in the same way that an unspoken "boys club" office setting would. A corporate policy like that is pretty clearly an impersonal management-type fluff program that does not solve every problem that could possibly arise from sexism, but that serves a resource for a few people desperately in need of it (and pretending that there are not people desperately in need of it is part of the problem). Furthermore, refusing to participate in a program that could give you connections and special insight out of some misguided principle that we must maintain the appearance that everyone is treated equally is very strange to me. While you were refusing assistance out of principle, your colleagues were offered opportunities, encouraged into management, etc. at varying rates based on process that can in no way be described as meritocratic.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by tomc1985 on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @06:27PM (#14706633)
The mere offering of assistance to people who do not need it, and feel they should not need it, can be construed as insulting.

EDIT: As mentioned to in another comment, "Special treatment feels condescending."

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by unidentified103 on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @06:47PM (#14706753)
Honestly, why take things like that personally? Why liken it to a ghetto? Is your pride really so hurt that someone wanted to help you out around the office that you refuse to believe that you could have learned anything useful from it? You can't even come out of it with another friend, a future business contact, an interpersonal skill, deeper knowledge of a workplace tool? It's great if some people don't think they need help overcoming sexist barriers in the office, some people do. No need to over-complicate it.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by wutbrodo on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @11:02PM (#14707868)
> Honestly, why take things like that personally? Why liken it to a ghetto?

Man, it's beyond irritating to see this kind "what's the big deal? just chill" type rhetoric used in this context. Particularly because it's a hard-fought (and ongoing) battle to stop this _same exact logic_ from being used to deflate complaints about what it's like for underrepresented minorities in the workplace.

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by unidentified103 on Thursday July 06, 2017 @12:09AM (#14708078)
The argument here was that being offered assistance is personally insulting. In this case, I think the "same exact logic" holds. Yes, the line of questioning is a bit of an abrasive way of putting someone on the defensive, but I wanted to have a clear and direct answer for why the ghetto comparison held.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by wutbrodo on Thursday July 06, 2017 @01:13AM (#14708288)
My point is that all the arguments used to rebut this line of thinking when applied to more conventional complaints from underrepresented people apply just as well here. If "the same exact logic" holds, what exactly makes the same exact rebuttals magically invalid?
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by unidentified103 on Thursday July 06, 2017 @01:28AM (#14708339)
What are the rebuttals?
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by wutbrodo on Thursday July 06, 2017 @07:21PM (#14714770)
Usually it's something like "you can't minimize someone else's experience if they're expressing that it's affecting their work life", "clearly there's a problem since they are underrepresented", etc.

They're usually pretty unfalsifiable, but they're not unreasonable, and the line of acceptable discourse has been firmly drawn to exclude questioning them.

I'm skeptical that you're actually unaware of these rebuttals: if I said to someone something like "what's the big deal, who cares that you're the only Latina in this company, the only one making a big deal out of it is you", I'm sure these rebuttals would readily come to mind. If not because you believe them, then at least because they're so ubiquitous.

Deciding that they're appropriate just because you disagree with the specific policy being criticized is kind of weaselly.

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by jboles on Thursday July 06, 2017 @05:39PM (#14714179)
> "what's the big deal? just chill" type rhetoric
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by Mithorium on Thursday July 06, 2017 @12:02AM (#14708049)
I wish more people were like you. If everyone tried to assume the best of others until proven otherwise instead of assuming the worst we would all be much happier as a group
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by Doxin on Friday July 07, 2017 @07:13AM (#14717529)
Sure, but that buddy system sure sounds a lot like pushing someone in a wheelchair, them asking you to stop, and you going on regardless. Unwanted help is unwanted.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by weberc2 on Thursday July 06, 2017 @08:52AM (#14709978)
"why take things personally?" The same could probably be asked of many of the "sexist barriers" you allude to. Intentions And pragmatism have never been relevant with regards to inclusivity; why should they now be? Because the offender has the right politics?
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by dilemma on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @08:08PM (#14707220)
You're clearly not part of a minority group.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by unidentified103 on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @08:25PM (#14707292)
That's a confusing reaction to what I said and what I'm arguing against.

Edit: For the record, I'm a bisexual Mexican woman. Of course there are times when I perceive people as holding my hand too much and I know it can feel condescending. When I reflect on it, though, no, it's not the same brand of condescension that made my middle school teacher tell me I had no future in math. There's something strange about victimizing yourself out of fear that people are victimizing you.

An internship program for women at Microsoft isn't a ghetto; it can only come from a place of extreme privilege and ignorance to believe so.

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by abduhl on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @06:53PM (#14706792)
Aren't your posts here telling the GP how important and useful a specific group for females is despite them explaining why they didn't want want to be a part of it a form of mansplaining?
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by unidentified103 on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @07:20PM (#14706974)
Why are you assuming that I'm a man? Either way, these kinds of programs are useful for certain people and there are lots of other articles in defense of them. Just because one person didn't want to participate doesn't mean that other people aren't happy that they exist.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by tracker1 on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @08:25PM (#14707290)
But why single out a given group? Why not offer everyone an "intern buddy"? Also, why change from opt-in to opt-out?
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by unidentified103 on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @08:43PM (#14707363)
Do you believe decisions like this are randomly made?

> "Why not offer everyone an 'intern buddy'"

Female interns could have complained about sexual harassment, female interns could have had lower rates of accepting return offers, etc.

> "Also, why change from opt-in to opt-out"

The program had been going on for a while. They could have had data that suggested that female interns would be interested in such a program but had fears about bringing it to the attention of their managers or had fears of the repercussions of being one of the few who accepted.

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by 0x8BADF00D on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @09:49PM (#14707621)
As an aside, my first job involved mentoring software engineering interns.

I was the "intern buddy", and the policy was for all incoming interns regardless of their gender.

The transition from college to work life can be challenging for many people (it was for me, I wish I had an intern buddy), regardless of their gender.

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by unidentified103 on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @10:10PM (#14707697)
Yeah, it seems to me like such a program would be a great addition to the onboarding process at many companies.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by meej on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @11:22PM (#14707949)
That sounds like a great program.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by tracker1 on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @08:57PM (#14707413)
Do you believe that decisions like this exclude men because women are so much more fragile and need more help than men?

Do you think that men may not need similar help. "intern buddy" doesn't imply a gender role, and maybe should choose to be an inclusive concept instead of exclusive.

The also could have just winged it and made the decision without backing data based on the advice of a gender studies professional.

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by unidentified103 on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @11:21PM (#14707945)
I don't know what reasons Microsoft had for making the program exclusive to women, because I think men would also benefit. Here's my guess: gender affects mentorship. An older man having a close working relationship with a young woman, inviting her out to lunch, and getting drinks after work carries implications that simply do not exist with a young man. Having these interactions take place within a socially sanctioned program helps everyone out because it clarifies the nature of the relationship to both the participants and the onlookers.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by meej on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @11:45PM (#14708004)
Microsoft didn't make the program.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by tomc1985 on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @07:18PM (#14706960)
Because it implies an opinion of weakness to the party offering said "help". Many people do not need or want help and forcing it on them only serves to enforce hidden power dynamics on behalf of the requestor.

What I really don't understand is how we men can act so innocent about all this. "Oh, I was just asking a question," "I didn't force her to do anything," "she was free to decline," "what, how could you not want help? Think of all the [rationalizations]!" and so on....

Shut. The. Fuck. Up. Intentions are as clear as the sky on a sunny day...

People who see others as equals treat people differently than those who think they see a potential partner, or victim, or lackey...

EDIT: Also, "mansplaining"

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by michaelmrose on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @07:37PM (#14707070)
You are super angry at something. Maybe that something is perfectly valid but it does not seem a reasonable reaction to the situation at hand.

You sound like the kind of person I would avoid interacting with at all costs because anything could result in non productive conflict. Have you considered people might be reacting to your hostility not your gender?

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by OJFord on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @10:43PM (#14707814)
> You sound like the kind of person I would avoid interacting with at all costs

And yet...

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by michaelmrose on Thursday July 06, 2017 @05:18AM (#14709070)
There is limited risk in talking to strangers on the Internet unless you say horrendously racist things then become Internet famous for it.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by tomc1985 on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @09:50PM (#14707622)
I am. Technology was in such a good place; the internet was a buffet of information free and available perused mostly by nerds, the clueless, and the occasional asshat. Now that all this crap's gone mainstream, the best info was bought up, and positivity-sucking muggles have ruined all that's left.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by unidentified103 on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @07:42PM (#14707100)
So am I supposed to feel equally condescended to by the man in upper management who calls me "sweetie" and the woman who has organized some person to show me around the office and introduce me to people? Okay.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by weberc2 on Thursday July 06, 2017 @09:12AM (#14710093)
Why interpret one charitably and not the other? I survived being called "honey" by a woman in management; I didn't take offense because it would never occur to me to spin a well-intentioned comment for victim points. I fully realize that cute nicknames can be used in condescending tones, but then the issue is being condescending, not the nickname. I also realize that the genders are reversed, and that's supposed to make the nickname more offensive or invalidate my opinion or something; just to head this one off early--it doesn't.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by arkh on Thursday July 06, 2017 @03:37AM (#14708755)
Do they do it for everyone?

Benevolent sexism is still sexism.

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by tomc1985 on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @09:48PM (#14707614)
As if condescension was a binary thing...

...and as with much of this stuff, much of it depends on context -- body language, situation, phrasing, intonation, and so on. A perfectly routine request or offer can quickly become patronizing depending on the manner in which it is asked, or by who. The vibe that I got from the original article was HOPPERS was one of those things -- help, ostensibly, but unnecessary and patronizing. Not in the same category as Mr. Sweetie Manager but still offensive.

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by joe4353444 on Thursday July 06, 2017 @01:52AM (#14708414)
Thinking humanity from first principles we need to help each other in order to help ourselves.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by specialist on Thursday July 06, 2017 @09:06AM (#14710048)
Good answer to a good (sincere) question. Thanks.

"Paternalistic" is the word that pops into my head. I really like "condescending" too.

Projecting the belief that we know what's best for other people, the arrogance, is why so many hate "liberal elites" like me. Whereas I'm trying to figure out ways to empower others, many of my cohort continue to unwittingly disempower others.

I definitely don't have any useful answers, insights.

(Aside: "liberal elites" are the mirror image of the "fundamentalists", for lack of better terms, who also know what's best for other people. This is not a left vs right issue.)

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by meej on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @11:14PM (#14707917)
I'm not sure "corporate policy" is the right way to characterize it. This wasn't a policy adopted by HR or anything like that. An internal employee group took this upon themselves, and in the years before I did my internship it was completely voluntary. They changed that the summer I was there.

As for the word ghetto, that is what came to mind when I read the part in Maria's post about special awards for women in tech.

It would have been fine if I had gotten an email describing the program and inviting me to participate. Instead, I got an email from a stranger, completely unannounced, saying "Hi, I'm your intern buddy!"

It was the assumption that I needed help because I'm a woman that I found condescending. I'm not saying programs like this aren't good, or that nobody needs them, it was the blanket application to an entire group without consulting them first that I took issue with. The difference between a safe space and segregation is whether or not your participation is voluntary. Had it been offered as an invitation I might have even taken them up on it, but nobody bothered to ask first. It was just assumed that because I'm female, I needed help. I disagreed.

Nothing can be described as meritocratic because meritocracy is a myth.

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by unidentified103 on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @11:59PM (#14708039)
Yeah, I can see how such an e-mail wouldn't exactly feel so welcoming if your participation was assumed and suddenly thrust upon you. But I don't necessarily think that it makes sense to believe that they wrote the e-mail that way because they thought you were helpless. Whoever wrote it could have been excited about the program and assumed everyone else would be too.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by meej on Thursday July 06, 2017 @12:23AM (#14708115)
Well I'm paraphrasing and omitting details for reasons of brevity and memory (this was almost 20 years ago, after all). I do recall the email was lengthy and made the point more than once that I needed extra support because I was a woman. I was at least halfway through my internship, which had been going very well, when I got it. It wasn't my first intern-like role, either, I'd done an 8-month co-op at another company the year before, which also went very well. The word that Maria used in her post, and that I quoted above, really does match how I felt -- I felt like I was being told I was a victim when that didn't mesh at all with my experience.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by nichtich on Thursday July 06, 2017 @03:47AM (#14708784)
Could it be they are not merely offering you help but also asking you to help others in this "buddy" program? Help can go both ways.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by Dove on Thursday July 06, 2017 @04:05PM (#14713446)
I don't have special knowledge of the particulars of the internship, but characterizing the effect as creating a ghetto makes sense to me, and I can try to explain why.

Have you ever heard the argument that donating free clothing to Africa is actually bad for Africans? The idea is that by providing free clothing, you destroy the local industries which allow Africans to create clothing for themselves, eliminating jobs, introducing dependency, and eliminating the possibility of a native African-style clothing industry flourishing and eventually exporting products and enriching the community. [1]

Charity comes with a counterintuitive hazard: any time you do something for someone that they could do for themselves, you make them weaker. You deprive them of the independence and control that doing it themselves would offer them, and you reduce the development of their own infrastructure for doing the task the next time.

Charity must attempt to make people stronger. Reduce the impact of a crisis while people recover. Give otherwise unattainable support while the person develops in ways they couldn't without it. Philosophically, funding startups, not donating products.

I'm not saying donating things is always bad . . . it depends on the effects. Charity is hard, I think more because it's hard to figure out how to help people, than because it's hard to be unselfish. I think there are a lot of cases where it's hard to anticipate what the effects will be, which is why it's so important to study what you're doing and see if you're actually helping. It's very easy to do harm while intending to do good. But the rough criterion I use comes from an old song about charity in Africa, and argues that the right attitude to have is, "I want to see you shine / See your light not mine." In a charitable effort -- is the focus on the generosity of the giver? Or is it about what the recipient can achieve and become, with the giver's help being a footnote?

A formalized mentorship seems like a marginal case, one you could argue worked either way. It's giving the new employee knowledge and extra help about the firm, a running start, if you will. Where's the harm in that?

The harm is that the new employee would normally acquire these things herself by asking coworkers, and in the process would learn who she could ask about what, and would begin establishing peer relationships that she will use throughout her career. The implication that she cannot do this for some reason isolates her, and giving her an artificial source of support weakens her ability to find her own support. This would be a bad thing if that artificial support ever went away, but in a way, it's almost a worse thing if it sticks around, because the result is the new employee relying on an inferior network to the one she would have developed herself.

The term ghetto to me implies that all the capable and competent people moved away, leaving the poorest ones stuck with just each other. A targeted system which isolates and coddles new employees will have just that effect -- they'll have the impression that it's the system and each other they can talk to, leaving them with a much, much poorer network than if they had just been introduced to the veteran coworkers as if that were perfectly normal which it is.

I'm right there with you in that this sort of thing shouldn't be taken personally. People intend it helpfully, and that charitable impulse should be honored (if perhaps gently educated, too). But I myself have always been very suspicious of programs targeting women, because there are a lot of people in the world who want to Help Women and I always suspect those programs are about their glory and pro-womanness or whatever, and more likely to harm me than do me any good, even if I can't see right away why that might be. I think my chances are better on my own, and anyway -- I'd prefer to have a similar experience to others in my field in the ways I can, to help me integrate into the new group.

Helping people develop and become stronger is difficult, even in the most concrete cases. It's not dissimilar to raising a child -- you argue one minute that relieving their frustration by making a task easier will give them the boost they need to do something even greater, and argue the next that letting them fail will make them stronger and they will eventually succeed on their own. It's an art more than it is a science, but I think as long as you are teaching something you understand and guiding someone toward mastery, you are pretty safe. But I definitely think it is much safer to devise solutions to help concrete cases than to help statistics. If I see you need help finding the break room, it is easy to conclude that giving you directions will be helpful. Providing you a buddy preemptively because certain classes of employee are less likely to ask for directions easily . . . seems more dubious in its effect. I understand the impulse, but I really think it is safest to stick to the concrete, and to help the people around you and solve the problems you can clearly identify directly.

[1] http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/mariah-griffinangus/africa-char...

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by paulddraper on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @11:17PM (#14707929)
The females in tech I know want maternity/paternity leave, respect, good work/life balance, a culture that values intelligent discussion, and fair salaries. You know, the stuff that most men want too.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by zjaffee on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @02:44PM (#14705090)
The one advantage I see beyond the traditional self-organization of various diversity groups is that an ERG can do a lot with a non zero amount of money, and influence within the recruiting department.

Forced participation is never a good thing when it comes to this type of stuff, but to have the money to send those who do wish to participate to events that help those who feel excluded, to feel included is certainly valuable in its own way.

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by bjt on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @04:57PM (#14706029)
What's an ERG? Google isn't showing me any meanings that would make sense in this context.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by greenleafjacob on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @05:23PM (#14706233)
Employee Resource Group
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by meej on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @11:27PM (#14707958)
I agree.
Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by kaosjester on Thursday July 06, 2017 @12:05PM (#14711389)
My wife got angry quite a few times in graduate school because the university's Women in Computing group forcibly signed her up to their mailing list at the start of every academic year. She unsubscribed every year and, without fail, they silently added her back. Apparently they thought a woman in computing couldn't manage without being part of this group!

It's one thing to give people the space and support they ask for. It's quite another to shove space and support, unsolicited, upon them.

Re:I'm not a Woman in Tech by fromo on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @09:04PM (#14707437)
I can sort of see your point. If you're 2 women out of 40 people chances are you already have enough of a thick skin and drive to find the environment comfortable and not wanting any help.

At the same time I bet that if this was offered to, at least some of, the men I've worked with it would take two weeks until everyone was informed of how important the program was for the organisation. While in reality they would use it to create informal networks within the same to further their own careers. Few of them would ever admit being singled out for any other reason than being an exceptional asset to the people around them. A fact that preferably would be indicated by their salary.

I can definitely see how getting special attention could be annoying. But at some point loudly objecting about something because it's only for women becomes not so flattering for women as a group.