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Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by bdamm on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:38PM (#14674529)
I have a confession to make.

With few exceptions, I cannot work with a woman without thinking about having sex with her. It's not like I'm trying, it's more like the thought is a blinking red light and I can't help but look at the thought. Then I realize the thought is absurd, but it's already happened. This normally doesn't leak out, but for some women, I will give them "eyes" and usually feel bad about it afterwards. But that can be persistent, and for the woman, must be kind of creepy feeling.

I'd love for this to not be the case, but after years of it, I'm at a loss as to how a man changes this somewhat foundational part of the brain.

The women for whom I don't have that thought almost always follow remarkably strict professional conduct to a T. The equivalent for a man would be top-button done up and formal slacks every day, never smiling. I actually really like working with these women because it's kind of a relief.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by jdoliner on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:50PM (#14674592)
It sounds like you may be suffering from a form of scrupulosity [0], a disorder in which you feel excessive guilt about moral or religious issues. In your case mostly moral. Fantasizing about having sex with women you work with and making eyes at them isn't really the same as what's going on in this article. Thoughts are just in your head, they don't affect the outside world unless you express them and "making eyes," unless you're intensely and persistently staring at them is unlikely to have the same effect as the actions in this story. You should cut yourself a bit more slack, you obviously care about not making women uncomfortable and from what you've described here I doubt you do make them uncomfortable.

If you're interested in reading more about this there's a great Atlantic article about Scott Aaronson going through something similar. [1]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrupulosity [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/01/the-blo...

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by bdamm on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:59PM (#14674630)
That hits close to home, thanks.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by JauntyHatAngle on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:49PM (#14674588)
>With few exceptions, I cannot work with a woman without thinking about having sex with her.

Its fine to think whatever you want, imagine murdering your boss, having sex with the coffee machine, whatever you want, that's happening in your brain, doesn't effect anyone else. It's a bit much for >every< girl though, that sounds like a deeper issue.

>This normally doesn't leak out, but for some women, I will give them "eyes" and usually feel bad about it afterwards. But that can be persistent, and for the woman, must be kind of creepy feeling.

Unless you are being creeper and staring like a weirdo all the time then I doubt they notice.

If you are being a creeper and staring 24/7, then you have deeper issues with restraint and politeness that need to be sorted out.

>I'm at a loss as to how a man changes this somewhat foundational part of the brain.

I think most guys can cope fine, I'd wager most guys have some racey thoughts about co-workers, but the difference between that and being creepy/unprofessional is that its in your brain and you keep it there. Restraint is kind of a "foundational" part of modern life.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by qb45 on Saturday July 01, 2017 @11:36AM (#14677522)
> Its fine to think whatever you want, imagine murdering your boss, having sex with the coffee machine, whatever you want

I sometimes have brain farts where I imagine some bad/evil/wrong/painful thing done by me or to me and for a short moment feel almost like it's real. For example, today I thought about stabbing someone's eye with a teaspoon I was holding at the time. It's unpleasant. If I imagine something like that happening to me for longer periods, I probably wouldn't want it.

> Unless you are being creeper and staring like a weirdo all the time then I doubt they notice.

If OP says they notice, they notice. People notice almost everything but consciously act on almost nothing. Sometimes they don't like their own reactions and pretend not to see. One can fall into the trap of trying to find signs of non-noticing only to constantly keep seeing minuscule involuntary signs of noticing. Sometimes feeling like you creep others out makes you behave nervously and actually creep them out.

Maybe it's better to be open that these things happen but yet they absolutely don't communicate any will for serious real-world consequences. Or dunno, ask some psychologist.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by geofft on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:54PM (#14674607)
A bit out of left field, but you might enjoy the book Every Man's Battle, written from a conservative Christian perspective, about exactly this problem. (The Christian man's problem with this inclination is that Jesus said, more or less, that making "eyes" at a woman is as sinful as actually committing adultery with her.)

As a not-particularly-conservative Christian, I kind of hated the book. Among other things it's got a sort of warped view of the problems with non-consensual interactions / objectifying women (there's one particular scene where there's a youth group leader and a member who's literally too young to consent, and the book puts more emphasis on the youth group leader being unfaithful to his wife than on him statutorily raping the kid). I also got the distinct feeling that I have this problem far less than any of the people in this book. But a number of friends have told me that they got a lot out of the book, so, maybe it'll resonate with you.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by JumpCrisscross on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:58PM (#14674623)
Acknowledge that reptilian instinct and then check it. Also, spend more time around women outside work. As friends, e.g. friends' wives, girlfriends or even just interesting women you meet.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by rokhayakebe on Friday June 30, 2017 @11:42PM (#14675248)
friends' wives,

Bad advice or this gentleman, for now.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by passive on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:53PM (#14674601)
I'm not a mind reader, but all men think this way to some degree. For myself, I don't possess a visual imagination, so the thoughts don't stick, but they do re-occur. However, I also have no difficulty ensuring this doesn't interfere with my relationships with my co-workers. I know whatever ideas I have are just transient thoughts, and there will never be a point where acting on them is worth the damage I might do.

Of course, as a disclaimer, I telecommute, so I'm rarely in physical contact with the women I work with. I'm also a Buddhist, so I have a lot of practice letting my thoughts go.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by pnw_hazor on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:46PM (#14674571)
Does the red-light blink around your sister or Mom?

Put your female colleagues in the sister compartment of your brain.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by venning on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:53PM (#14674602)
The Westermarck effect attempts to explain why that is not a simple mental adjustment. It's a theory, but it states "people who live in close domestic proximity during the first few years of their lives become desensitized to sexual attraction." [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westermarck_effect

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by bdamm on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:51PM (#14674596)
Maybe this is easier if you've had a sister. I never did. And I can't sit across the table from a skin-flashing admin assistant and think of her like my mom, who is in her 70s. It doesn't work.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by passive on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:57PM (#14674619)
The fact that you use the term "skin-flashing" here is a little concerning. Perhaps it was just meant as a shorthand for attractive woman, because otherwise you've taken a woman's choice of dress and behaviour and made them part of your neurosis. Unless of course she is giving you the Basic Instinct treatment (is that too old a reference for this site?), in which case I'm entirely out of advice for you.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by neom on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:51PM (#14674593)
I would highly recommend you talk to a therapist about this.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by bt4u2 on Saturday July 01, 2017 @04:42AM (#14676104)
Everyone is like this, and everyone knows it. But you're not supposed to talk about it.

Besides, thoughts are just thoughts. You can choose to try to not act on them

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Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by linkregister on Saturday July 01, 2017 @01:15AM (#14675509)
The West?

The ratio of women board members, executives, and engineers is far higher in China than in the U.S.

I think you're being down voted because of a combination of false premises and arguing a strawman, "eliminate gender." Nobody is trying to do that.

[dead]
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by linkregister on Saturday July 01, 2017 @02:59AM (#14675803)
You were talking about disliking equality movements in the West. I was adding that it's happening in China and other Asian nations too. So that leaves you with... the Middle East and Africa?
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by qb45 on Saturday July 01, 2017 @12:38PM (#14677777)
You talk about putting women in executive and engineering positions, ableton talks about the belief that sexual behaviors are a cultural construct and can and should be eliminated or bent arbitrarily to social progressives' desires.

The former can be achieved without the latter - just jail people who dare to discriminate against women, problem solved. Soviets managed to implement this even in Muslim states, go figure.

The latter is how the former is being attempted in the West and some are skeptical.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by ableton on Saturday July 01, 2017 @12:18PM (#14677703)
Why do you keep talking about other countries? I wasn't comparing the west to any other country.

Men and women are different. Women have decided that they don't want to be women any more. The results have been disastrous. Families are falling apart today. 60% of people in prison come from home without dad. We have more money than ever, and less happiness. People are so silly. They confuse money and power with happiness. Incidentally all the divorce that comes thanks to women actually leads to more poverty. (2/3 of divorces among college educated come from women)

Most people have been thoroughly brainwashed. There are only a rare few like Neo who the programming just doesn't quite work for.

[dead]
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by gizmo on Friday June 30, 2017 @09:32PM (#14674773)
That's awful. Stop it.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by smmsnsks on Friday June 30, 2017 @09:43PM (#14674820)
I can't really stop, but a valuable question is, should I? The women who have worked with me have succeeded and been promoted to successful managerial roles more than those who have worked for my other male colleagues. Who would be served by an attempt to change my thoughts?
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by obstinate on Friday June 30, 2017 @11:55PM (#14675288)
You think that the women you've worked with have been promoted . . . because you were fantasizing about them instead of engaging with them? Not, for e.g., maybe because they were more capable than average?

IMO, you should seek therapy. You sound like you need it more than most.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by nnfy on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:55PM (#14674608)
How incredibly odd, it is almost as though we are, perhaps, driven by biological imperative to find members of the other sex attractive. I'll just let myself out with these crazy conspiracy theories.

In seriousness, I'm pointing out the absurdity of being so surprised that this kind of thing still exists. We are fighting one of the most fundamental drives of not only the human race, but [non asexual] life itself.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by pfarnsworth on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:49PM (#14674585)
You should talk to a therapist. It will affect your career sooner or later, if it hasn't already. You better get help on how to control these thoughts, and more importantly your actions, especially if you sometimes give "eyes" to your coworkers.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by Un3qual on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:57PM (#14674617)
I vehemently disagree with that. While I do not know your gender or sexual orientation, I can assume that at some point you've looked at another person and been attracted to them. This can't be controlled because our species' success (before the modern medicine era) is due to our ability to reproduce. I don't see a problem with looking at someone. If it gets to the point of creepily staring for long periods of time, or wanting to act on his thoughts, then he has good reason to see a therapist, but being able to see that someone is attractive while also not wanting to have sex with them is completely normal. I'm a guy and I acknowledge that many of my platonic female friends are very attractive, but I don't want to have sex with them in the same way that I would a wife or girlfriend.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by pfarnsworth on Friday June 30, 2017 @09:11PM (#14674684)
> If it gets to the point of creepily staring for long periods of time, or wanting to act on his thoughts, then he has good reason to see a therapist,

This is what he said, that's why I suggested a therapist. He constantly thinks about having sex with his female coworkers, and the ones that he feels the most attracted to he will give "eyes" to. Then he feels guilty afterwards. These are abnormal reactions. I wasn't talking about YOU, I was talking about HIM.

If you can't get your work done without thinking about having sex with your coworkers, you need to see a therapist.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by Un3qual on Friday June 30, 2017 @10:35PM (#14675030)
Ah, it looks like we interpreted his words differently, and I misunderstood what you meant. I assumed that >I cannot work with a woman without thinking about having sex with her. meant that he can still get work done with women, but he thinks about having sex with them. I should also clarify my point "that many of my platonic female friends are very attractive, but I don't want to have sex with them." I'm not saying that the thought never crosses my mind, just that it's not an issue. About your last sentence, if I apply it to my situation, the first part is true. There has never been a time where I've been with them, but the thought has never crossed my mind, but I value our friendship, so I have no reason to try to act on that. I believe your point is that coworkers are more of an issue than friends in a situation like this, and I completely agree with that, but I just don't think it's necessary to see a therapist until he does anything more than occasionally staring.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by auserperson on Saturday July 01, 2017 @05:36PM (#14679167)
He seems obsessed with the problem and and can't cope with the guilt of his own thoughts, he should see a therapist to learn about how to deal with that. To say someone to see a therapist is not an insult! It's mental health, it's fine!