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Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by 5thaccount on Friday June 30, 2017 @07:19PM (#14674150)
I expect less VCs to take meetings with women, sadly. Not because they are likely to be problems, quite the opposite I'd wager.

That's going to be the rather depressing and sad reality of the shakeout of this.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by xenadu02 on Friday June 30, 2017 @07:51PM (#14674319)
> I expect less VCs to take meetings with women, sadly.

Why? There's a really simple procedure that can solve these problems:

Don't hit on, feel-up, or try to have sex with people you're in a professional business relationship with. That goes double for people you hold power over (managers to employees, VCs to Founders, etc).

If you're really truly worried about false accusations then here's another fix you can have for free: record your meetings, texts, emails, and calls with founders and/or don't meet alone.

I expect smart VCs that are interested in making money (as opposed to lording it over others or using their position to get sex) will continue to take lots of meetings with women.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by TeMPOraL on Saturday July 01, 2017 @04:01AM (#14675960)
> If you're really truly worried about false accusations then here's another fix you can have for free: record your meetings, texts, emails, and calls with founders and/or don't meet alone.

It's not so easy. Bullshit accusations leaking on Twitter will be halfway to destroying your career before you even dig up the original recordings, and I doubt anyone will want to listen to your case anyway (if anything, they'll comb over your recordings with a tootbrush to prove you were guilty of this, and a bunch of other things). I too expect VCs to be less willing to expose themselves to such danger.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by noir_lord on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:00PM (#14674366)
The smart ones might take more, less competition for the ones with good ideas/products.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by 5thaccount on Saturday July 01, 2017 @03:44AM (#14675925)
Do you know what amazes me about comments like yours? You don't have to agree with a course of action to accept the reality that certain things will happen.

> I expect smart VCs that are interested in making money ... will continue to take lots of meetings with women.

OK, so ON NET what do you expect to happen? Lets say I agree and the smart ones take the meetings, what about the dumb ones? Or the average ones? What is the net result of all those different levels of VCs? Less or more meetings for women?

Again, "You don't have to agree with a course of action to accept the reality that certain things will happen".

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by jbmorgado on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:20PM (#14674459)
> "If you're really truly worried about false accusations then here's another fix you can have for free: record your meetings, texts, emails, and calls with founders and/or don't meet alone."

Well, there are two problems with that.

1 - It puts the burden of proof on the accused. I.E. it totally throws out of the window what has become a de facto human right and an universally established legal one in every democracy: "Innocent until proven guilty", into a: "Guilty until you can shows us some footage that proves you are not guilty" (which let's face it, it's basically impossible if the accuser is lying on purpose and knows how to do things).

2 - In America I think you are free to record other people interacting with you or in your office/home (perhaps some American can clarify this), but in many other countries, specially in most of EU, that's a crime. You can't go around recording people unless they are of public interest and in a public situation or they expressly consent to it.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by manfredo on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:28PM (#14674499)
It may or may not be legal to record conversations in the U.S. depending on the state, and depending on whether or not other people consent to being recorded. California has 2-party consent law when it comes to recording conversations. In other words, it's a crime to record a conversation with another person and not tell them: https://www.google.com/search?q=california+conversaion+recor....

(Law enforcement is exempt from this restriction, of course).

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by jaredklewis on Saturday July 01, 2017 @01:11AM (#14675497)
As has been pointed out, no one is suggesting non-consensual recording. Starting a meeting with, "do you mind if I record this?" is hardly alien.

As for burden of proof, I don't see it. It's like saying that asking people to lock their houses is a burden, when thieves are the criminals.

If you are a VC having a meeting with a founder, arrange for for more than 2 people to be there, such as a co-VC, a co-founder, a secretary, or whoever. Are business meetings with 3 people suddenly a human rights violation?

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by acdha on Saturday July 01, 2017 @10:10AM (#14677164)
The burden argument seems really disingenuous given the context. This is a business meeting, not picking dinner with your friends, and the process is full of negotiation, records, and witnesses. Would anyone protest writing down terms or having a secretary at the meeting to avoid the chance of a contractual dispute later?
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by jbmorgado on Saturday July 01, 2017 @05:18AM (#14676219)
> "As for burden of proof, I don't see it. It's like saying that asking people to lock their houses is a burden, when thieves are the criminals."

This is surely the poorest analogy I've ever read in my all life, comparing a burglar trying to enter your house with someone falsely accusing you of something.

What about the burden of proof you don't see if you go casually dressed to shop in some fancy shop and they falsely accuse you of trying to shoplift and you - oh bummer - didn't record everything?

You also don't see any burden of proof on you if you go to some corrupt country and the police falsely stops you for speeding and you didn't record your all trip after the moment you got there (though luck, if you didn't record everything is because you surely did something wrong)? You don't see that burden of proof on you, right?

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by jimmywanger on Friday June 30, 2017 @09:10PM (#14674678)
> I expect less VCs to take meetings with women, sadly. Why? There's a really simple procedure that can solve these problems: Don't hit on, feel-up, or try to have sex with people you're in a professional business relationship with. That goes double for people you hold power over (managers to employees, VCs to Founders, etc). If you're really truly worried about false accusations then here's another fix you can have for free: record your meetings, texts, emails, and calls with founders and/or don't meet alone.

You simply expose your naivete.

http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/california-recording-law

Any recordings done without the approval of the other party are illegal (opening you up to legal actions) and are completely inadmissible in court.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by Mtinie on Friday June 30, 2017 @09:49PM (#14674856)
The previous comment didn't allude to illegal recording of conversations without consent. The suggestion was to ensure there was a record of all interactions.

If I'm a VC and I've scheduled a meeting at my office it is as simple as letting the party I'm meeting with know that I had planned on recording for my archives.

Nothing unusual or sketchy about the request, especially in a business setting.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by munchbunny on Friday June 30, 2017 @09:32PM (#14674779)
If you're a VC, you can just ask if it's okay that you record the meeting for record-keeping or pick-your-reason.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by jonny_eh on Friday June 30, 2017 @07:35PM (#14674248)
Then they'll miss out on some of the best startups out there. A VC firm that respects women will have an easier time investing on good terms.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by zzalpha on Friday June 30, 2017 @07:25PM (#14674190)
Because VCs are all populated by serial harassers who now realize they can't get away with this crap?

Or are you saying these will be seen as false accusations and thus it'll scare off VCs who aren't run by mysogynist pieces of sh-t?

Because I'm not sure what the alternative is. If a VC is not in the habit of harassing women, they have nothing to fear. In fact, it'll give them an opportunity to court talented entrepreneurs driven away from the immoral part of the VC spectrum.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by prodmerc on Saturday July 01, 2017 @10:36AM (#14677258)
Everyone has plenty to fear. Any sexual harassment/rape accusations (no matter how untrue) are incredibly damaging, it's very biased towards the accuser.

The people who actually do this shit are scumbags, but there's plenty who will take advantage of this when things don't go their way, and reputation damage is worse than physical for a lot of people.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by chrischen on Friday June 30, 2017 @07:45PM (#14674303)
"If you're not doing doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear."

Ahh--if only this were ever true.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by zzalpha on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:23PM (#14674474)
Again, that statement is only false if these are false accusations.

Are you saying they're false accusations?

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by chrischen on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:27PM (#14674496)
My point holds as long as false accusations are possible. Women, like men, are not all angels. Sexism, or even patriarchy, has no gender.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by hanspeter on Saturday July 01, 2017 @04:31AM (#14676055)
But false accusations are possible about anything. By this logic VCs should avoid talking with anyone.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by pluma on Saturday July 01, 2017 @07:33AM (#14676638)
Sure, if you completely ignore the cultural context.

Rape and sexual assault (of women) is seen as one of the worst possible crimes[0] a man can commit in most Western societies[1]. These crimes are so heinous that even accusations are enough to destroy someone's career and social status, even if the accusations are dropped or proven false.

This is further complicated by these crimes generally being very difficult to prove without recorded evidence and eyewitnesses, creating a dilemma of either treating the accusation as fact (foregoing "innocent until proven guilty") or risking that a criminal can avoid consequences and may go on to repeat his crime. The media often favors the former, people close to the accused often prefer the latter, although even a disproven allegation can sow permanent doubt.

There aren't many crimes a VC could be falsely accused of that have the possibility of such dire consequences and such a low burden of proof.

[0]: The only crime I can think of that society treats as worse than sexual abuse of women is sexual abuse of children.

[1]: This isn't about the relative severity of legal punishments, or in any way a judgement on what crime is "less bad" than another, just how people (and the media) generally react to people being charged with these crimes.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by grey-area on Saturday July 01, 2017 @11:37AM (#14677525)
Since the current president celebrates his past assaults on women with no consequences, and threatens his accusers, again with no consequences, and Cosby was recently freed, your thesis that mere accusations damage prominent men rings hollow. The exact opposite is true.

It is so damaging for the women involved (career, socially, and withstanding the barrage of slander, misogyny and distrust that they always seem to face) that it is very hard to step up and simply tell the truth, and you are part of the problem here, with your needless insinuations about false accusations and talk of a low burden of proof.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by azernik on Saturday July 01, 2017 @09:58AM (#14677132)
The cultural context is pretty much the exact opposite. The cultural context is that men with power tend to get away with sexual harassment of subordinates for years before anyone gets caught. Only when there is a mountain of evidence and a small army of accusers does the world actually believe them.

For all of the VCs described in this story - this was a pattern, corroborated by independent sources, and with details in writing. There is in fact a very high burden of proof before anyone even gets blasted in the mainstream media, let alone fired.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by pluma on Saturday July 01, 2017 @12:54PM (#14677838)
I think the distinction that can be made is that allegations of sexual abuse of women are less damaging in some cases than others. That the people in question were able to "get away with it" says more about how their character is generally perceived from the onset than about society in general.

It's true that society is ridiculously "tolerant" of gross misconduct of some people more than others but there are enough examples of lives being ruined by false allegations to validate my original point.

As a sibling comment pointed out, Trump was elected despite his "locker room talk" and multiple women alleging sexual abuse (plus the actual chauvinism he has displayed on numerous occasions). However I would wager that similar allegations would be far more damaging if leveled against someone like Sanders.

There's also the effect that successive allegations sometimes even reduce the credibility of the allegations because of suspected bandwagoning ("Oh, she just wants some of that attention to make herself interesting").

Humans are fickle and irrational, especially when in a group. Individuals tend to be treated differently but this tends to be more about social status than gender itself.

[dead]
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by xor1 on Saturday July 01, 2017 @01:43AM (#14675588)
>The people getting in trouble are the serial harassers who are so egregiously bad that a multitude of incidents are documented.

Donglegate was less than five years ago, did you already forget about it?

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by pluma on Saturday July 01, 2017 @07:40AM (#14676664)
Donglegate wasn't about false accusations, though. It was about a woman publicly shaming two other attendees for what she considered inappropriate jokes in a public setting and then being caught in the blowback when other people were unhappy with how she handled the situation.

Her accusations were factual, although there was discussion about whether they were valid.

Also, the people who agree that her accusations were valid, are also likely the people who think that their behavior was indicative of them being serial harassers.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by xor1 on Saturday July 01, 2017 @01:59PM (#14678123)
I was responding to this too:

>The people getting in trouble right now are not the borderline cases of someone saying an awkward comment here or there.

>Also, the people who agree that her accusations were valid, are also likely the people who think that their behavior was indicative of them being serial harassers.

Which is completely unreasonable. Do you remember what she complained about them saying? Dongles and forking repos? They were discussing among themselves, it wasn't targeted at anyone, and any reasonable person wouldn't believe it was sexist.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by pluma on Monday July 03, 2017 @04:13AM (#14686699)
I'm not saying that I'm one of those people. I'm just saying they're generally pretty consistent about these things and they exist.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by stale2002 on Saturday July 01, 2017 @08:12PM (#14679904)
I agree that donglegate was bullshit.

But cases like are few and far between.

And IMO the majority of people on the internet were supportive of the guy who got fired, and also thought it was bullshit.

The woman who started the whole drama received way worse retaliation from the Internet mob (which was partially deserved) and got fired as well, so it was tit for tat at least, although that of course doesn't fix the damages.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by adrr on Friday June 30, 2017 @11:03PM (#14675120)
Ellen Pao case shows they are quite possible.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by icelancer on Saturday July 01, 2017 @05:41AM (#14676287)
>False accusations are basically not possible though.

Of course they are. There is opportunity, therefore it is possible.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by plandis on Friday June 30, 2017 @10:25PM (#14674995)
Are you suggesting the false sexual harassment / rape accusations never happen? I think there are some athletes from Duke who were subject to character assassination and would entirely disagree with you.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by icelancer on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:59PM (#14674627)
>Are you saying they're false accusations?

Of course there are false accusations out there. It's not the majority of them or even a significant number. But it's not zero.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by notgood on Saturday July 01, 2017 @12:03AM (#14675316)
It is a significant number. For example in Hardvard campus 20% of the allegations were determined to be false[0]; but this is a controversial subject and the numbers all over the place[1] from state to state and even more from country to country but overall most quote numbers that are not an insignificant number.

[0]http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/report-1-in-5-campus-rape-...

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by nnfy on Friday June 30, 2017 @09:08PM (#14674672)
So long as there are incentives to make false accusations, there will always be false accusations. Just as there will always be true accusations.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by mikeash on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:14PM (#14674426)
The good ol' "I don't want to be accused of a crime, so I'll preemptively commit a crime" defense.

I would strongly advise against discriminating against people based on their sex in the course of your business dealings.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by 5thaccount on Saturday July 01, 2017 @07:44AM (#14676675)
You are placing normative (meaning "you should do") moral judgements on a descriptive (meaning "this will happen") moral statement.

My prediction isn't what SHOULD happen, but what I think WILL happen. My personal opinion on what is morally right? As I'm not a VC, utterly unimportant and redundant.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by mikeash on Saturday July 01, 2017 @11:43AM (#14677557)
Apologies. Consider my ire directed at the people you describe, not at yourself.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by tomjakubowski on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:54PM (#14674606)
Is sexual discrimination in business actually a crime in the US? I thought it was typically handled in civil court.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by mikeash on Friday June 30, 2017 @09:18PM (#14674714)
I think you're right. It's "unlawful" but handled civilly.

While looking up the relevant law, I looked through the Civil Rights Act of 1964 which prohibits employment discrimination on the basis of sex and various other things, and discovered that there is an explicit exception written in to the law for members of the Communist Party. So you can totally discriminate against any commies who might try to work for you. Not really relevant here, but so weird I just had to share.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by tomjakubowski on Friday June 30, 2017 @09:32PM (#14674776)
Jeez, the Cold War was a strange time. The exception seems especially weird since political party affiliation wasn't a protected class in the law to begin with. I guess that meant you legally could say, "We only hire non-Communists, regardless of sex/race/religion/...; and white Communist Jain men of Estonian origin."

I wonder if it was just a "safeguard" against members of CPUSA claiming their membership was a religious affiliation.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by mikeash on Friday June 30, 2017 @11:00PM (#14675109)
I found this PDF which describes some of the history behind this clause:

http://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=...

It sounds like it was an amendment introduced by a confused lawmaker who wanted to make sure the law wouldn't stop companies from firing Communists. The amendment was then accepted on the basis that it didn't make any difference (since as you note party affiliation isn't protected in the first place), so it wouldn't do any harm to include it.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by sushisource on Friday June 30, 2017 @07:23PM (#14674174)
Unfortunately I suspect you're right, at least in the shortish term. The culture in general does seem to be making progress in (fits and starts) this area, but it's gonna take a while.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by cyphunk on Friday June 30, 2017 @07:26PM (#14674200)
this response would be as short lived as it is short sighted -- not taking into account that eventually.soon their bias would be measurable and again turn into ethical and PR nightmares for VC's that dont find a way to manage their male problem
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by rtpg on Friday June 30, 2017 @07:59PM (#14674361)
Any VC whose reaction to this is "oh I guess I should avoid taking meetings with women because I just can't know what goof will cause me to get sued" is probably already making some women uncomfortable.

If you cannot understand how _stupidly easy_ it is to have a completely non-sexual, non-harassing conversation with a member of the opposite sex, you most definitely should read up on some stuff. I mean this in the most non-snarky way possible.

Wouldn't it be nice if half the population weren't completely turned off by the idea of talking to anyone in tech?

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by noir_lord on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:06PM (#14674389)
Sales at my company is female dominated, I'm in building next door so I run into them all the time, I just treat them as any other member of staff, politely but otherwise as an amorphous blob.

I don't socialise with work mates outside of work events either, lines get crossed when you do in a alcohol orientated culture like mine.

It's worked fine for me for 19 years employed.

Had one female former colleague assume I was gay because I never hit on her (and she was attractive).

Nope, just not interested in bollocking up a good work environment, it was interesting to watch the dynamic though.

My simple rules for work.

Treat everyone equally, small stuff matters, I went out for coffee and went and asked the cleaner if he wanted one, he looked surprised.

Don't gossip ever, just don't. Leave the conversation if someone else starts.

Be on time, meet deadlines, let boss know as soon as you know you won't.

Be professional, you might know a customer for years but they are still Mr Smith until they say 'call me Bob'.

When a boss makes what you think is a poor decision (business reasons, moral reasons etc) get it in writing.

Always send a recap email after meetings, misunderstandings cost less the earlier you catch them (much like bugs).

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by oxryly1 on Saturday July 01, 2017 @01:27PM (#14677988)
Great list. Its interesting how good ideas for how to conduct yourself in a business environment will naturally exclude creepy and/or harassing behavior AND will also leave far less room and opportunity for false accusations to take root.

Its not foolproof by any stretch, but it's excellent risk management on multiple fronts.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by noir_lord on Saturday July 01, 2017 @04:41PM (#14678896)
I've been working since I was 18 and in 19 years I've seen a lot, experience is learning from your own mistakes, wisdom is learning from other peoples.

It's really not that difficult to maintain a professional attitude, it's a skill like any other it's just the modern workplace isn't always conducive to it, frankly I'd prefer a more formal workplace than informal all things been equal.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by xor1 on Saturday July 01, 2017 @01:44AM (#14675594)
I agree with these 100%, and I've followed similar rules throughout my career so far (and will continue to do so).
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by jacquesm on Friday June 30, 2017 @10:32PM (#14675020)
Those are excellent rules. In fact they should be printed on page #1 of employee handbooks.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by TeMPOraL on Saturday July 01, 2017 @04:06AM (#14675971)
The risk is that some go-getter will use a harassment thread as leverage over you. No matter how saintly are you, in the current culture nobody is going to believe you if you're a man accused of harassment - so why open yourself up for the possibility?
[dead]
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by sidlls on Friday June 30, 2017 @07:26PM (#14674193)
"It's okay if you're attractive enough" is wrong on multiple levels no matter how it's phrased.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by kelukelugames on Friday June 30, 2017 @10:30PM (#14675010)
Maybe the best way to phrase this is "If there is mutual attraction." Plenty of people marry their co workers. And there are plenty of non creepy/harassing ways to figure out if someone else is interested.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by sidlls on Friday June 30, 2017 @10:43PM (#14675058)
That's a bit of a different scenario, though. The statement I objected to is sexist in at least one of these two ways: 1) it presumes that women appreciate these advances from men in positions of power simply because they're attractive (i.e. that harrassment is "forgiven by default" if it's done by an attractive guy) or, 2) women are vacuous and easily charmed by attractive men to the point where they don't recognize sexual harassment for what it is.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by sillysaurus3 on Friday June 30, 2017 @10:51PM (#14675080)
It probably isn't sexist to say that people appreciate advances from someone who is extremely attractive, as long as both are available and looking.

The problem is that it's inappropriate to express interest if you're in a position of power over someone, whether you're a man or a woman. I think you were saying that, but point #1 lacks that context.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by sidlls on Friday June 30, 2017 @11:03PM (#14675117)
That's fair, and I edited my comment to reflect that.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by bt4u on Friday June 30, 2017 @11:50PM (#14675277)
Are there? Please explain them to me. I'm serious and want to learn
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by sokoloff on Saturday July 01, 2017 @12:07AM (#14675329)
(Assuming no supervisory relationship or other power imbalance,)

Make an introduction. Make your mild/budding interest in them clear enough. Ask them to do something that's clearly not work with you.

"Hey, want to get coffee sometime this weekend?"

You'll find out if there's preliminary interest or not. If they're interested but busy, they'll figure out how to make that distinction clear. If "sorry; I'm busy" is the entire answer, just assume they're not interested. You get one "free" chance here; make it fairly clear that you're interested; don't invite them out for a "team dinner" and then arrange for the rest of the team to not show up or other chicanery.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by morgante on Saturday July 01, 2017 @04:10AM (#14675982)
Unfortunately, it's not quite that easy. Sometimes it's not clear that you're asking them on a date. Ex. I've asked a professional associate out for drinks. I thought it was a date, she didn't, and she was offended when I tried to flirt a little. (I stopped once I realized she wasn't interested, but it could have been offensive.)

Personally, I've stopped ever pursuing anyone who works in the same industry due to the potential for weird dynamics, but it's sometimes not as cut-and-dry as people make it sound. Like the example with Chris Sacca, is flirting with someone at a conference a form of sexual harassment?

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by meric on Saturday July 01, 2017 @01:22AM (#14675527)
That chicanery happens when the man is insecure and thinks a woman won't go out with him unless it's a team dinner. If there's a magic potion to turn an insecure man to become more secure without the man doing stupid things and screwing up asking out women, you'd make trillions.
Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by csomar on Saturday July 01, 2017 @04:41AM (#14676100)
I'm not saying what sokoloff said is wrong (or doesn't work) but I'd not invite a woman (or a person) to coffee before getting a physical approval. This physical approval (eye contact + smile) is usually a certain indicator of interest. I'm talking about same level co-worker.

I'd not go with a co-worker that I have power on (like being the direct manager, or the VC). I can see many ways where the relationship can go awfully wrong.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by morgante on Saturday July 01, 2017 @04:53AM (#14676146)
How do you get physical approval without flirting?

I have eye contact and smiling with lots of people. It's just being friendly.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by Shivetya on Saturday July 01, 2017 @06:07AM (#14676361)
There should be no one on one meetings for any plausible business venture. Both sides needs to have multiple players to protect all interest and keep discussions to the subject at hand.

I would suggest than anyone who does get into such meetings simply demand the presence of multiple persons. This isn't a buddy lending money to another.

Re:Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe... by 5thaccount on Saturday July 01, 2017 @07:48AM (#14676681)
So, you want less meetings for women?

Scenario with a female founder: "Listen, I want to meet you but as we have an at least one woman present policy for any meetings with female founders, adn all the female partners are booked for the next week, I'm afraid I can't meet you".

Vs with a male: "Hells yes I'd love to catch up for coffee, I love your idea. Unfortunately, it will just be me as everyone else is busy".

When you add a price to a subset of players but not others, that subset suffers worse results see: http://freakonomics.com/2009/03/10/the-price-of-disability-l...

> One example was the Americans With Disabilities Act, and we told the story of a Los Angeles orthopedic surgeon named Andrew Brooks. When a deaf patient came to him for a consultation, he realized that the A.D.A. required him to hire a sign-language interpreter for each visit if that’s what the patient wanted. The interpreter would cost $120 an hour, with a two-hour minimum, and Brooks wouldn’t be reimbursed by the insurance company:

> That would mean laying out $240 to conduct an exam for which the woman’s insurance company would pay him $58 — a loss of more than $180 even before accounting for taxes and overhead.