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Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by djrogers on Thursday June 29, 2017 @05:37PM (#14667067)
Wait, so Zillow agreed to back down but McMansion Hell can't continue their (clearly legal) fair use of images fro Zillow's site? How is that a win for anyone but Zillow?
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by burkaman on Thursday June 29, 2017 @06:41PM (#14667440)
"moving forward" means future posts won't use Zillow images, but she doesn't have to take down any existing posts. Explanation: https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/880538191094263808
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by tempestn on Thursday June 29, 2017 @05:45PM (#14667127)
Whether they _could_ is an open question. They voluntarily agreed not to, presumably since there are other sources for those images, so it isn't worth picking a fight over. The real hardship would have been in removing and replacing all the old images.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by rickpmg on Thursday June 29, 2017 @05:55PM (#14667177)
But isn't the EFF supposed to pick the fights based on principals? By agreeing to this compromise they really just gave all the Zillow's of the world more confidence that strong-arm tactics work.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by brainfire on Thursday June 29, 2017 @06:05PM (#14667227)
Perhaps it's less "fine, I won't use it anymore if you don't sue" and more "I've decided to stop advertising your service for free on my website regardless of the outcome of this," and Zillow deciding to use the opportunity to gently remove their corporate dick from this particular beehive.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by droopyEyelids on Thursday June 29, 2017 @07:26PM (#14667643)
Except Zillow sort of won. So they are the beehive and McMansion is the dick being removed.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by bayonetz on Thursday June 29, 2017 @06:22PM (#14667334)
Very colorful
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by harryh on Thursday June 29, 2017 @06:04PM (#14667216)
It's not the EFF's fight to pick, it's Kate Wagner's (the proprietor of the blog). It's pretty easy to imagine her not wanting to deal with a prolonged fight.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by wyldfire on Friday June 30, 2017 @12:13PM (#14671655)
Plus, the EFF has limited resources and litigation would be time consuming. As long as they can fight back against the big companies by writing a letter, they can litigate for clients who face other companies who won't back down so quickly.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by Moto7451 on Thursday June 29, 2017 @07:38PM (#14667699)
By providing the muscle necessary to protect the rights of Kate Wagner, they have won.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by thaumasiotes on Thursday June 29, 2017 @10:27PM (#14668281)
Which rights of Kate Wagner did they protect? She could have achieved the same thing by losing in court.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by harryh on Thursday June 29, 2017 @10:50PM (#14668352)
She isn't removing old posts that contain photos sourced from Zillow. If she had lost in court she might have had to do that.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by jessaustin on Thursday June 29, 2017 @11:28PM (#14668458)
She would have definitely had to do that, and probably she would have had enough monetary damages levied to bankrupt her. It's not reasonable to fault EFF for pursuing her best interests.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by thaumasiotes on Friday June 30, 2017 @02:43AM (#14668976)
> It's not reasonable to fault EFF for pursuing her best interests.

That depends on whether you think the EFF's goal is more to protect the general well-being of Kate Wagner or to protect the idea that you can post pictures on the internet.

It's not reasonable to fault Kate Wagner for pursuing her own best interests, but what do those have to do with the EFF?

Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by icebraining on Friday June 30, 2017 @04:37AM (#14669360)
The EFF is representing her. They are doing so because they have a more general goal, but they're still legally and ethically bound to respect her interests.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by thaumasiotes on Friday June 30, 2017 @02:50PM (#14672888)
I might suggest that representing her in conflict with their institutional mission is not a good use of the EFF's resources, and replaces a conflict of interest between the EFF and Kate Wagner with a conflict of interest between the EFF and its own supporters.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by icebraining on Friday June 30, 2017 @06:18PM (#14673898)
I suggest you try viewing this more as an activity of fundraising than pushing for their main goals. All non-profits funded by small donations have to do such things, and this had a pretty good side-effect as well.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by accountyaccount on Thursday June 29, 2017 @10:45PM (#14668337)
A zillow competitor should just swoop in and sponsor her.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by fanpuns on Friday June 30, 2017 @06:05AM (#14669653)
Other users have made similar points that McMansion Hell was somehow advertising for Zillow by using their pictures, but why would you want to sponsor a blog whose express purpose is to make fun of or criticize listing on your site?
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by accountyaccount on Friday June 30, 2017 @09:13AM (#14670459)
Because they're your listings — not your service. If someone saw McMansion Hell they may be inspired to find shitty listings of their own on Zillow, and maybe they just happen to create an account and consider using it to find non-shitty listings when they're ready to buy a house.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by HarryHirsch on Thursday June 29, 2017 @07:26PM (#14667642)
So... no forward guidance about fair use. It's very disappointing, the EFF is supposed to be on the good side of the law, it doesn't to serve popular bloggers! Who wouldn't love to play fly on the wall during negotiations?
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by tempestn on Friday June 30, 2017 @03:18AM (#14669102)
Once a lawyer from the EFF takes her on as a client, even pro bono, it is absolutely their responsibility to serve her best interest.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by icebraining on Friday June 30, 2017 @04:38AM (#14669368)
As the letter pointed out, the guidance is well established, there's no need to drag out an innocent into yet another fight.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by HarryHirsch on Friday June 30, 2017 @11:33AM (#14671359)
They all tell you to be bold in claiming fair use, the Chicago Manual gave the same advice 20 years ago, yet McMansion Hell is still down. EFF says one thing, Zillow says the opposite. What guidance are we supposed to believe? Is it like Torvalds when someone asked him if he had been approached by the 3-letter agencies?
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by icebraining on Friday June 30, 2017 @06:08PM (#14673856)
The Zillows of this world will always threaten to sue and even actually sue regardless of the established precedents, because they don't need to win in court, they just need the other (weaker) side to lose money and time. There's nothing the EFF can do about that by pursuing this case.

If you dislike this, push for a federal anti-SLAPP law.

Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by non_sequitur on Thursday June 29, 2017 @06:53PM (#14667495)
Because Zillow is ultimately right here and her use of the images without Zillow's permission is against their terms of use (which contrary to the hand-wavy analysis in EFF's letter, is absolutely enforceable). However, Zillow doesnt have a lot of damages to recover from her use and definitely wants to avoid another big PR stink, so they get to back off gracefully, she agrees to stop saying she gets the pictures from Zillow (which is what they really wanted), and everything goes back to normal.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by dr0verride on Thursday June 29, 2017 @07:07PM (#14667551)
Just because Zillow has something in their terms of use that doesn't make it enforceable.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by non_sequitur on Thursday June 29, 2017 @07:12PM (#14667576)
The EFF letter cites a bunch of cases where an arbitration clause was unenforceable because of the way the terms of service were presented, which has nothing to do with the current situation (whether a restriction on using images from Zillow is enforceable). I know it's not fashionable to express support for a big bad corporate machine over the little guy/gal, but I'm trying to share some actual information instead of just gush.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by 5ilv3r on Thursday June 29, 2017 @07:28PM (#14667654)
You're contradicting statements made with sources cited without citing any of your own, or explaining how they would nullify the other points made on why this use is acceptable.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by non_sequitur on Thursday June 29, 2017 @07:42PM (#14667717)
When lawyers write letters, they will throw everything they can possibly think of and the kitchen sink, even if it's not relevant. Many of the cites in the letter are not relevant to this situation (I'm not going through every one, but just as an example):

The letter says:

"But Wagner is not bound by your Terms of Use and, even if she were, the relevant provisions are unenforceable. Courts routinely decline to enforce “browsewrap” agreements like Zillow’s Terms of Use, which fail to present terms except via a hyperlink and without a checkbox to signal assent. See, e.g., Nguyen v. Barnes & Noble Inc., 763 F.3d 1171 (9th Cir. 2014); Meyer v. Kalanick, 199 F. Supp. 3d 752 (S.D. N.Y. 2016); Be In, Inc. v. Google Inc., No. 12-CV-03373-LHK, 2013 WL 5568706, at *9 (N.D. Cal. Oct. 9, 2013); Kwan v. Clearwire Corp., No. C09-1392JLR, 2012 WL 32380 (W.D. Wash. Jan. 3, 2012)."

Nguyen v. Barnes & Noble Inc., - court declined to apply arbitration clause (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguyen_v._Barnes_%26_Noble,_In...) Meyer v. Kalanick, - court declined to apply arbitration clause (http://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2016/08/judge-declines-...) Kwan v. Clearwire Corp. - court declined to apply arbitration clause (http://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2012/02/kwan_v_clearwir...) Don't have a link to the Google case, but I would be shocked if it werent the same issue.

Do you see how the very first paragraph where they start citing has very little to do with the actual issue? Translation: "Hey Zillow, first of all your terms of service arent enforceable, see these 4 cases, all of which have to do with whether an arbitration clause could be applied and have nothing to do with the current situation."

2nd paragraph: "Even if an agreement were formed, paragraph 14 of the Terms of Use, asserting Zillow’s right to alter the contract without notice or justification, would render the agreement illusory and void for lack of consideration. See, e.g., Cheek v. United Healthcare of Mid-Atl., Inc., 378 Md. 139, 144, 835 A.2d 656, 659 (2003); Interchange Assocs. v. Interchange, Inc., 16 Wash. App. 359, 362, 557 P.2d 357, 359 (1976)."

Again, nothing to do with the situation at hand

Cheek v. United Healthcare of Mid-Atl., Inc. - arbitration clause in an employee handbook held unenforceable (http://www.whaylaw.com/employee-arbitration-agreement) Interchange Assocs. v. Interchange, Inc. - an agreement where directors agreed to serve 10 years or until they resigned was an "illusory promise" and did not provide sufficient consideration for a contract (http://courts.mrsc.org/appellate/016wnapp/016wnapp0359.htm)

Again, neither of these are really relevant to the situation. I'll stop here but I hope you get the gist of it. Here's what happened - some junior lawyer at EFF spend 4-5 researching all the cases they thought would be remotely relevant and threw them in there because hey it looks impressive, but if you spend some time digging into them the truth quickly becomes apparent.

(I don't work for Zillow or EFF)

Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by Meekro on Thursday June 29, 2017 @08:03PM (#14667794)
The "Nguyen v. Barnes & Noble Inc" decision is absolutely relevant. It's true that they were arguing about whether an arbitration clause applied, but what's important is the analysis the court used to determine that it did not. The distinction between clickwrap agreements (where you click a checkbox to say you agree) and browsewrap agreements (where you're expected to see some notice buried in the footer about the terms of service) was critical to the court's analysis in Nguyen. In the opinion, the court cites a long line of precedents to show that if a browesewrap agreement is sufficiently well-buried that it does not put a "reasonably prudent user on inquiry notice of the terms of the contract" then it does not apply.

You could try to draw a distinction by showing that this particular browsewrap agreement was more prominently featured than the one at issue in Nguyen, but you don't get to just hand-wave it away by saying that it was about an arbitration clause.

Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by non_sequitur on Thursday June 29, 2017 @08:28PM (#14667874)
Flip it around - courts decide not to apply arbitration provisions because it involves giving up a key right (jury trial), so they find that there was no meeting of the minds in the TOS given the manner it was presented. Essentially, if a browsewrap TOS is not presently prominently enough to let you to make an educated decision on waiving your right to a jury trial, you get to keep your right to a jury trial.

You dont have this situation when the issue is whether you have the ability to use a provider's images for non-permitted purposes. Your right to use someone's images how you like is not nearly as important as your right to a jury trial. I'm not aware of any case where non-arbitration provisions of a TOS were not applied due to browsewrap reasons, if you are aware of any I'd love to see them.

EFF's argument would be totally valid if Zillow was trying to force McMansion into arbitration. That's not the issue here, and it's misleading to start off with "your TOS are unenforceable [because courts have declined to apply arbitration provisions in certain browsewrap TOS contexts]"

Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by Natsu on Friday June 30, 2017 @12:05AM (#14668578)
As for the character of the case law, that's primarily because people don't go to court over things like this, they just file DMCA notices which are rarely litigated very far. The cases are all arbitration clauses because the parties had something else they wanted to sue for and they had to overturn that clause first.

As a reminder, Zillow cannot, here, file a DMCA notice because they lack the copyrights with which to do so, and pretending to represent a copyright owner you do not in fact represent is contrary to the statement you sign under penalty of perjury when filing a (non-defective) DMCA notice.

You never did address 15 USC 45b, either, which further undermines their claims of ToS enforceability -- https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/45b

And I'm really not clear why you think one's first amendment rights would have less weight than sixth amendment rights? You haven't really articulated a theory as to why one is important and the other is not.

If you're going to pick apart an argument why not Zillow's? Their claim under the CFAA is ridiculous and it was already shot down in US v. Nosal.

"The Ninth Circuit's first ruling (Nosal I) established that employees have not "exceeded authorization" for the purposes of the CFAA if they access a computer in a manner that violates the company's computer use policies—if they are authorized to access the computer and do not circumvent any protection mechanisms."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Nosal

Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by pbhjpbhj on Friday June 30, 2017 @07:04AM (#14669855)
Meekro's point is compelling; to me it doesn't look like you read the Wikipedia page on that case beyond the "holding".

It's very clear (in everything but the Holding synopsis)) that court sees the ability for browserwrap to hold over a website visitor is contingent on affirmative action being required of a website visitor. That makes the citation more than just pertinent but a knockout if Zillow is arguing that McMansion Hell were bound by their ToS, and so ...

That said I can't see the court acceding that ToS overrule Fair Use for reporting/critique/parody/education as that would neuter Fair Use completely.

Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by non_sequitur on Friday June 30, 2017 @10:52AM (#14671104)
You (and most people in this thread, and discussing this on the Internet) are confusing 2 completely separate concepts.

Fair use is a COPYRIGHT doctrine. It is part of the US copyright law that says, creators of a copyright can enforce their rights against people who misuse their creations, except in certain cases, fair use being one of them. So if Zillow brings a claim under the US Copyright act, McMansion can assert a fair use defense. (https://www.copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html)

Zillow's terms of service is a CONTRACT. It is separate from whether Zillow can bring a copyright claim. They could sue for both breach of contract and copyright infringement. Fair use is a legitimate defense for the copyright infringement claim (and I agree would likely be successful). It is NOT a defense for the breach of contract claim. There is no such thing as "TOS overriding fair use" because they are on separate and distinct tracks. ("However, binding agreements such as contracts or licence agreements may take precedence over fair use rights.[21]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use)

As for whether the arbitration cases show that restrictions on use of proprietary images on browsewrap TOS are enforceable, we'll agree to disagree - jury trials are a far more important right (as someone below pointed out) than whether you can use someone's proprietary images for your own purpose. I find it difficult to believe a judge or jury could (fairly) find that there is no 'meeting of the minds' on whether you can take and use any images, website content, code, etc. you feel like from someone's website or online product under a browsewrap license. It's a significantly different issue than whether an arbitration clause can be enforced. I would argue that most people know that 'taking things from other people is bad and not allowed' without requiring prominent notice on a website about it. But this case will be litigated, so we'll never know.

Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by pbhjpbhj on Saturday July 01, 2017 @03:42PM (#14678594)
>There is no such thing as "TOS overriding fair use" because they are on separate and distinct tracks. //

I don't know it to be certainly true, if you can cite something solid on the point I'd be happy: however in general there is such a principle, that certain rights can't be disclaimed.

Taking a logical approach - and law is not always logical - Fair Use could be disclaimed, eg in a ToS, then all Media corps would say words to the effect "this work can't be used under USC's Fair Use legislation" and the democratic law would then be subverted entirely.

Per your final para, most people do know infringement (no one 'took' anything, it's a copy) is not allowed [tortuous]. But, Fair Use very rightly allows copying for parody, reporting, education and similar purposes. They also know that no matter what you try to claim about not using images of your product, news and review, parody and education _are still allowed_ (not in all jurisdictions, however).

The established precedent is n that a browsewrap license needs affirmative action - checkbox, click-thru/interstitial, etc. - this precedent means nothing written in the license is pertinent, the viewer isn't party to the contract.

Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by bradleyjg on Friday June 30, 2017 @01:27AM (#14668800)
The federal arbitration act and numerous Supreme Court cases interpreting it (many involving summary reversals) forbid discriminating against arbitration provisions in the manner you suggest. Neither state nor federal courts can apply a stricter rule to provisions involving agreements to arbitrate versus any other kind of contract provision.

See for but one of many examples Kindred Nursing Centers Limited Partnership v. Clark from last month.

Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by nihonde on Thursday June 29, 2017 @08:46PM (#14667940)
The EFF was clearly pushing for a broader ruling on browsewrap enforceability. In my view, if a court threw out a browsewrap arb clause, it would also throw out the terms that purport to override fair use and the first amendment.
Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by InclinedPlane on Friday June 30, 2017 @04:06AM (#14669256)
No, Zillow's TOU is absolutely non-enforceable. Illegal TOUs are still illegal. Care to disagree?

P.S. By replying to this post, you, "non_sequitur", agree to pay me $500 for every character in your response.

Re:EFF's Letter to Zillow on Behalf of McMansion Hell [pdf] by ncallaway on Thursday June 29, 2017 @07:35PM (#14667684)
> which contrary to the hand-wavy analysis in EFF's letter, is absolutely enforceable

Uh...no. It's not.