We understand the temptation, but please don't create accounts to break HN's guidelines with. Doing that will eventually get your main account banned as well.
However, with the way it is worded, you're right it seems to be a direct attack on people.
It is unfortunate that people of a nation get lumped together when discussing bad government policies.
Anyone with half a brain knows that its not the theoretical communism.
Also, how does 'extreme nationalism' manifest in the expat community? Is it just talking passionately about your homeland? Or are these people actually taking physical action? I mean, 'extreme nationalism' is suggestive of more than just talking.
Textbook whataboutism. The US isn't jailing people who talk about government missteps. China does jail people who talk about what happened in 1987.
> Also, how does 'extreme nationalism' manifest in the expat community? Is it just talking passionately about your homeland? Or are these people actually taking physical action? I mean, 'extreme nationalism' is suggestive of more than just talking.
I think he meant "patriotic". The most patriotic thing is to believe your country's form of government is better than others, or at least as good as others. So, I gather that comment was asking how the Chinese can support their government while it embraces capitalism.
Personally, I don't hold the same feeling of incredulity. I think it all exists to support those currently in power and to prevent revolution. China had to adapt after Mao's policy failures, and they did so while keeping the same government in power.
No, that'd potentially be a delusion of patriotism. Or nationalism. Patriotic would be to make your countries government better than others. Not merely believing it is.
I agree. The original argument of this thread was that without free press, doing things like making your country's government better is difficult, if not impossible.
Therefore, it seems contradictory to be patriotic in a system that does not permit its citizens to improve upon that system.
What will actually change in government to prevent Trump 2.0? How will it be improved? That's the saddest thing about this whole debacle, is that nothing will be changed to get rid of a bad president. No mechanisms will be added. Everyone will breathe a sigh of relief when Trump leaves (in whatever way) and then pinky-swear that "we'll never do that again" without changing the mechanisms to actually make it so.
There are a number of active lawsuits against him, most important probably being the emoluments ones. These take time to prepare and put in front of a judge.
I don't know what better solution there is to wannabe dictators than a free press. Trump hates the press that doesn't agree with him. That should be a big sign that they are a thorn in his side.
Life isn't perfect, nor is government. Sometimes you get a lemon and just need to deal with it with as much reason as you can muster.
O_o
In a parliamentary system, when the leader loses the backing of their own party, they're no longer leader. And you don't have to wait four years for that to happen.
Nope. I was ridiculing the idea of categorising an entire nation as all being of the one mind.
You need better textbooks.
> The most patriotic thing is to believe your country's form of government is better than others, or at least as good as others.
Nonsense. There are plenty of rabid American patriots who despise their government and want to change it, for example. And there are plenty of people who believe their government is the best form, but aren't particularly patriotic.
> There's 1.3 billion brain-washed citizens Brain-wash is a strong word. Chines people are not like some another-dimensional like minions. They think and behave reasonably and just like any other one on this planet. Please refrain from using strong word without actual evidence.
> taiwan is a part of china
History shows that Taiwan was forcefully severed from the national Chinese government. Taiwan government also say they belong to the national Chinese government, and thought the mainline CCP is illegal.
> tiannamen square didn't happen
You probably meet some people who happen to believe that. I highly doubt anyone in China now believe that did not happen, let alone those who live in Bay area.
> the CCP is ok
CCP is fine. They managed China in good shape. What's the problems one would have if you have such a government.
> how can they study here for grad school, want to stay for h1-b and get the green card, have extreme nationalism for their officially communist government yet happily participate in the fruits of capitalism and western liberalism. It's quite shocking.
1. China does not have a socialism or communism economy. You can label it as such, but the truth is they practice a national capitalism. Such belief is not in odds with western values. People do value freedom and all such ubiquitous values, so they move to western countries. 2. "Extreme nationalism for their officially communist government" Just 3 bullet points, then this label got applied onto these people?! Bias aside, the 'extreme' part is rather exaggerating. Why nationalism is tied with the government? 3 bullet point can translate to pro-communist government? And an extension to tie 'extreme nationalism' to communist? I just cannot see the connection.
3. "happily participate in the fruits of capitalism and western liberalism." No, people do not have hidden agenda to do anything out of reach. They believe in the value of western nations. The premise of what you said is unfounded, and this contrast does not bear much meaning, IMHO.
Why does the government go to such extreme lengths to suppress the information then? More people than you admit don't believe or admit it happens. The government is playing a long game here, as the younger you are the less likely you are to have had access to the information, and it gets worse over time.
In my opinion it will actually get better in time. The country is not in as precarious a position as it was back then, and with the progression of stabilisation, the need to suppress embarrassing parts of history will hopefully diminish. I certainly doubt something like that could happen again.
And you might know that censorship can take different forms. The CCP has historically taken a heavy-handed approach; other countries are more subtle, but they de-emphasize and bury. I personally think that Japan's systematic memory-hole-ing of its WWII exploits is far worse than the Tiananmen suppression. And what percentage of Americans do you think know about Kent State? Dresden? Hell, dronings?
Not really defending China here, or trying to start a game of whataboutism. I'm just pointing out that they're not North Korea, their citizens are not stupid, governments will always protect themselves, and history is written by the winners everywhere.
Of course, Canada has its own sordid moments in history... Residential schools, Oka & Ipperwash crises, Japanese internment during WW2.
I think the Chinese government may play a role in strategically choosing only the most extreme and nationalistic individuals as eligible emigrants. This will skew the perspective of Americans who don't leave their country. Chinese student-spies on American University campuses is a well documented phenomenon [0].
[0] https://nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/chinese-students-western-c...
Why "Chinese student protesting" is labeled as "spying". Dalai does want to make a part of China become independent. Without going into the debate into the legitimacy of this claim, can a country's citizen express their own emotion through the right channel? What makes them spy?!
Straight out of that article:
Li Fengzhi, a longtime employee of the Chinese Ministry of State Security who came to the United States in 2003 as a graduate student at the University of Denver, said that the Chinese government did not see the group so much as a spying operation, but rather as a propaganda and “information collection organization.” Mr. Li eventually defected and was debriefed by F.B.I. counterintelligence agents about the group’s activities.
I could not find any other sources to cross-reference this information. All the information that I could find about Li Fengzhi (wikileaks, washingtonpost) talks about his link to Ministry of State Security (MSS), and make no mentions of comments made on the student groups. So it would appear that he was talking about MSS when talking about "the group".
- http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/19/exclusive-ch...
- http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/09/li_fengzhi...
- http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/10/li_fengzhi...
- https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/12/1231001_re-spytalk-li-...
Of course I could be wrong and NYT had the first hand information on that, but the entire Li Fengzhi story ended in 2010 so it is not likely that NYT had the information without publishing it before 2017.
No one in America will repress you, punitively or otherwise, for talking openly about, for example, the "Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male.” This is a horrifying and deeply shameful thing, tears well up in my eyes even to think about it, and here is a government site describing it: https://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm
Today, in China, Falun Gong practitioners are being imprisoned and having their organs harvested.
The people who comprise the CCP are scary. What is the world gives someone the right to try to lie to a whole nation of billions of people? To define a false reality and insist with strength of law that it's real? The incredible grotesque arrogance of the thing! And what a mind-fk for a nation to do to itself!?
But then I think, what would I do, how far would I go, to prevent another Taiping Rebellion?
CCP does much worse things than you western people even remotely understood. That does not mean that Chinese people are spies/extremist/...
> suppression of knowledge about the "June Fourth Incident" and it really blows my mind.
This is correct and true. And governments around world are learning quickly. That's the part we all should be aware.
> Today, in China, Falun Gong practitioners are being imprisoned and having their organs harvested.
I am not sure where you got this "fact"... This is a well-known fabricated lie of the Falun Gong leaders... Again, I cannot prove that no such thing, just as I cannot proven that there wasn't human organ harvesting in US. I can only say that all the sources to claim the existence of such thing is not true.
> The people who comprise the CCP are scary.
CCP has 80MM members. Please do not randomly exaggerate fact... If 80MM people are skilled practitioner of CCP tricks, China will already be the master of the world before 1987...
> What is the world gives someone the right to try to lie to a whole nation of billions of people?
No one. And no Chinese people or very few of them think CCP has the right either.
> To define a false reality and insist with strength of law that it's real?
Not sure what do you mean by "false reality".
> The incredible grotesque arrogance of the thing!
No clue what "grotesque arrogance" refers to.
> And what a mind-fk for a nation to do to itself!?
Please, do not mix CCP and Chinese people. People do not align themselves 100% at all time with the government or the party.
> But then I think, what would I do, how far would I go, to prevent another Taiping Rebellion?
Interesting. If you read CCP's propaganda, Taiping Rebellion is proclaimed as the righteous movement of the people to overthrow a corrupted government.
While in reality, Taiping Rebellion is more like a group of manic that causes havoc across the nation. It brings no advance to anything, and killed 10MM+ people. And is considered a setback to the overall progress of Chinese society.
I only recently learned about the whole "washing" of the "Incident" and it has really made me think.
I certainly agree with your rebuttal. I do not conflate the CCP with the Chinese people. And I'm aware that there are hundreds of millions of Chinese people who don't even live in China.
I also recognize that most of the members of the CCP are good people, the ones I call "scary" are a small minority. (Even if I don't agree with Communism.)
All things considered, if I'm thinking clearly, the most important thing I can recognize about China and the Chinese people is my own deep ignorance. :)
- - -
some points:
In re: the Falun Gong, they have newspapers and occasional demonstrations where I live, and they manage to make a very sober and sobering account of it. If they are lying they are damn good at it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...
I don't know the truth of it myself, I hate to believe it.
> > What is the world gives someone the right to try to lie to a whole nation of billions of people? > No one. And no Chinese people or very few of them think CCP has the right either.
Which is reassuring in one sense but dreadful in another: the concept of the "Mandate of Heaven" is still valid, even if you take it just as a metaphor?
> Not sure what do you mean by "false reality".
I mean the attempt to pretend the Tiananmen Square Massacre didn't happen.
> No clue what "grotesque arrogance" refers to.
I mean that the folks responsible for the decision to try to change history are being arrogant, institutionally if not personally.
> Please, do not mix CCP and Chinese people. People do not align themselves 100% at all time with the government or the party.
I agree. But taken together, as a Nation, that's a lil schizophrenic. Part of the nation knowing about the massacre and part "knowing" that it was merely an "incident" or even a myth, that's very schizophrenic. Even if most of the people see through it, it's still unhealthy I think.
In re: Taiping Rebellion. When I read about it I was horrified. A vast horde hopped up on rebellion and bad religion and overrunning everything they could... And they call it a "righteous movement"..?
Anyhow, sorry for my ignorance.
My statement "I highly doubt anyone in China now believe that did not happen" seems too rush and was from my own experience only, because I learned Tianmen incident in college.
Or I should say most people eventually will be ignorant about what's tianmen incident. They neither believe it happened or not happened, they simply have no such idea, like in an alternative universe.
And on the spectrum of Complete Communism->Complete Capitalism (no country is completely on either end), I'm not so sure China is too far off from some completely western countries. According to the Index of Economic Freedom, China is only slightly lower than Croatia (EU Member), South Africa and Italy[1].
Try talking to them as another asian or foreigner. You will see their nationalism come out.
If you don't believe me, ask your non-American non-Chinese friends for their anecdotal experiences.
And yes, of course it's not all of them.
I mean, that's some serious cognitive dissonance if they're living in America yet exhibit hyperpatriotic attitudes.
I'm going to present as much evidence as you have - none - but in my experience this is categorically and absurdly untrue. And your claim that others don't see this because they're "obvious American" is the opposite of reality. The only times I have seen Chinese express "love" for their government is when it's criticised by a foreigner. Between themselves they complain non stop. The best the CCP can hope for from the vast majority of its populace is, as far as I can see, a kind of grudging respect.
You really need to learn the difference between extreme pride in your country and in your government, because they are two very different things. Plenty of peoples have the former - including the Chinese and indeed Americans. I struggle to think of any large population of the latter and they certainly do not live in China.
Not sure how do you get that. I suppose you do not have the super power to read mind.
I personally believe Taiwan is a separate country be every objective measure, but the current mess isn't just the PRCs making, past and present Taiwanese politicians deserve some blame here too.
The political views of the mainland soldiers who invaded Taiwan during the 50s and the views of the people of Taiwan who were at their mercy weren't the same, even when dictatorship made it impossible to speak freely. Many had to acquiesce to the system to get by and some did for decades. A prime example would be the first Taiwanese native to succeed in the KMT. After decades of doing the party's bidding, he made it to the very top and destroyed the dictatorship from the inside by allowing opposing parties to form, participate in elections and ultimately win.
That's why a few other members say their anecdotal evidence hasn't seen that much extreme pride - I suspect the people they are talking about have spent 5-10 years here at least, and arrived here in the late 90's-early 2000's when China was still weak and not as rich.
Try talking to new grads and mid-late 20's who are here, who arrived here when China became rich. They are very very prideful. You won't see it if you're an obvious American dude; they will not show their colors.
Obviously you do not encourage westernization by blocking them off. The US strategy is probably to encourage them to be here to gradually acclimate them to western liberalism over time, where they can go back eventually as the ruling elite and gradually shift attitudes in their country.
An example of the first to adopt such ideals, would be Japan.
Let's keep the discussion civil and hopefully we all can get something out of this.