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Re:Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone develo... by petercooper on Friday June 25, 2010 @07:52PM (#1462639)
He commands his rates because he is a household name. [..] You, however, are an iPhone app developer. App purchasers have never heard of you. They will not turn out in droves to buy an app just because you worked on it.

I think his conclusion is wrong but the analogy is good. It's unnecessary to be literal with the term "household." Most of the world's top scientists, lawyers, and bankers aren't household names, yet they can command extremely high levels of respect and, often, grants or income due to being a "household name" in their field.

I'm not arguing Mike is a "household name" amongst developers - he's not, IMHO - but there's no reason why a "household name" developer couldn't get the Brad Pitt treatment. John Carmack would have his arm bitten off if he were available at $1000/hr. Is Mike Lee the iPhone equivalent of John Carmack? No. If he were? His analogy seems OK to me.

Re:Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone develo... by joe_the_user on Friday June 25, 2010 @10:27PM (#1462923)
The analogy is good because Brad Pitt's value comes from people value him for other people's opinions. The pull for going to see a movie star come because you believe that his fame has value for itself.

If Mike can just make one employer think that other people want to hire him, he can command these otherwise absurd rates. It's a sort-of mirror world.

Prestige, log-rolling, extended-Ponzi scheme. It's all representation chasing more representation.

Re:Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone develo... by mkramlich on Friday June 25, 2010 @08:59PM (#1462748)
Interesting comparison you made too. Because for me, I respect Carmack a hell of a lot more than Mike Lee. And I suspect he's a much better programmer as well. And human being.
Re:Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone develo... by astrange on Friday June 25, 2010 @09:17PM (#1462781)
Was that last part necessary? I think it's a bad idea to declare someone not a good human being based on the one blog post you read.

(Especially since he wrote a few others about saving endangered species and homeless people.)

Re:Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone develo... by mkramlich on Friday June 25, 2010 @10:18PM (#1462892)
You're totally right. I have never met either man in person. I only said I suspected that, based on the personal behavior I've seen expressed in both cases. I've never seen Carmack behave badly. What I read in the Lee post constitutes bad behavior, in my ethical system. YMMV.
Re:Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone develo... by Tichy on Saturday June 26, 2010 @03:03AM (#1463289)
What part do you deem unethical? I am conflicted about the ethics of driving high speed sports cars myself :-)
Re:Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone develo... by mkramlich on Saturday June 26, 2010 @03:33AM (#1463326)
I didn't say he was unethical. I said he did something that constitutes what I consider to be bad behavior. Publically announcing one's $1000/hr pay rate to the entire world, and writing a post using the particular language and attitude shown in it. That struck me as bad behavior, applying the same standards I'd expect out of anybody else. Is it like robbing a bank? Heck no. Obnoxious? In my book, yep. And look, I'm clearly not the only one who had the same reaction, as evidenced by what others have said in this article's discussion area.

As long as no bunnies were made to cry during the production of a Tesla Roadster, I'm confident I wouldn't feel conflicted about driving one. :)

Re:Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone develo... by Tichy on Saturday June 26, 2010 @06:53AM (#1463468)
I've had a client once tell me that my rate was outrageously high (it was average, but anyway). Since then I have come to the conclusion that basically, it is impossible to have an outrageously high rate. My rate is not the value I assign to a particular task (ie solving the clients problem). My rate is the value I assign to my own time. How can anybody else besides me judge the "fair" value I assign to my own time?

There are exceptions, of course - I guess if I was a surgeon and I would refuse to operate on somebody because they can't afford me, the ethics would be very questionable.

Re:Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone develo... by mkramlich on Saturday June 26, 2010 @06:52PM (#1464446)
We agree that rates are weird and relativistic. Myself I've seen $50/hour described as too high, and $100 as too low (head explodes), and I've been treated alternately as both overqualified and underqualified for doing some technical thing that I know I could certainly do. Also seen and heard that bidding low will increase the chance of getting a gig as well as decrease the chance (for some clients), and, and, and... It's just crazy inconsistent and relative.

There's also the "all developers are the same, therefore commodity pricing is in effect" phenomenon which is annoying to encounter. And the "just tell me rate, because I know exactly how many hours this will take, and no other factor matters" phenomenon. Crazy stuff.

One good takeaway from the Lee article I had was that if you set a really high rate, even if you scare away a lot of people, all it takes is 1 client to agree to that, billing anywhere from 1 to a few hours in a given month, and you're in the holy "Ramen profitable" zone. Well, able to cover food and shelter anyway. But then you'll have tons of free time and energy leftover for other activities.

Re:Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone develo... by petercooper on Friday June 25, 2010 @09:14PM (#1462776)
I find it more interesting that you're using a blog post to judge the author's quality as a human being.
Re:Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone develo... by mkramlich on Friday June 25, 2010 @10:24PM (#1462912)
Writing things on the Internet is part of human behavior.

What a person says reveals aspects of who they are. The Internet is not some special place that is exempt from all normal expectations of conduct that otherwise hold in meatspace. Just as simply being part of a business enterprise does not exempt one from being judged as a human based on your behavior.

Also note I said "suspect" not "knew for certain" or anything as extreme or decisive as that. Important distinction, and one I chose intentionally when picking that word. :P :)

Re:Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone develo... by marknutter on Saturday June 26, 2010 @01:56AM (#1463208)
What a person says reveals aspects of who they are.

Indeed

Re:Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone develo... by blasdel on Friday June 25, 2010 @10:13PM (#1462884)
To be fair, there's a long history of self-aggrandizing blog posts with which to judge him by.
Re:Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone develo... by petercooper on Friday June 25, 2010 @10:24PM (#1462910)
That still seems like an curious criterion with which to judge someone's humanity. Gary Vaynerchuk, DHH, Zed Shaw, and a lot of the people admired by many HNers are very self-aggrandizing.

Sidenote: It seems that people like this have to deal with a trough on their way up where a lot of judgment gets thrown their way for their outgoing manner. If they hit it big, though, that seems to be quickly forgotten and everyone loves them. We've seen it with all of the above. Those who fail to cross the trough, end up forgotten.

Re:Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone develo... by ErrantX on Saturday June 26, 2010 @03:20AM (#1463311)
Zed, for example, is very much like that. In the other hand he produces lots if great code and ideas. That is why he earned respect.
Re:Mike Lee on why he can charge $1,000/hr for iPhone develo... by jpcx01 on Saturday June 26, 2010 @12:26AM (#1463101)