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Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by javiramos on Thursday June 22, 2017 @03:19PM (#14614591)
Exactly this happened to me about a month ago. I switched from Provider_A to Provider_B. Provider_A totally sabotaged the connection hardware when it disconnected the service. Provider_B's technician had a very hard time redoing the connection hardware.

It's amazing to me that all these connections are still physicial (as opposed to some software-defined switching between providers). Something akin to software-defined networking.

Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by pjc50 on Thursday June 22, 2017 @03:29PM (#14614667)
> Something akin to software-defined networking

What you want is "local loop unbundling". It's how this works in Europe where you have artificial non-free markets with real price competition, rather than natural monopolies without price competition as in the US.

Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by moriarty-s3a on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:54PM (#14615281)
This used to be the case in the US after the Telecom Act of 1996. However, the FCC decided on their own to give the ILECs a grace period of a year to implement LLU and then kept extending the grace period. After the dot com bust and the following recession in the early 2000s, most of the CLECs went out of business and Congress gave up and removed that requirement in 2006.

The state PUCs didn't do much enforcement either, but the FCC deciding not to enforce the law killed it.

Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by toast0 on Friday June 23, 2017 @01:01AM (#14617141)
I'm not sure you have the history quite right; at least in Califonia, the mandated LLU was alive and well[1] for incumbent telephone carriers (ILECs), but the FCC had decreed that it applied to ILECs and not cable operators; and eventually (after much complaining and lawsuits from ILECs) decided it applied to noone, because ILEC + Cable + Satellite + Power line (hah) was a competitive marketplace.

[1] not exactly well -- when the ILEC regularly offers individual customers service at rates under the wholesale rates; and the regulators don't do anything; that's not really working well.

Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by masklinn on Thursday June 22, 2017 @03:36PM (#14614718)
AFAIK in LLU cases the (unbundled) ISP still needs to install their connection hardware at the local loop. VNO is the fully software one.
Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by ferongr on Thursday June 22, 2017 @09:10PM (#14616506)
LLU still requires connecting the "loop" from its original termination point in the exchange to the space your ISP rents for its DSLAM racks (usually the next room or the same room, just a couple of corridors away).
Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by rayiner on Thursday June 22, 2017 @06:28PM (#14615791)
None of the big European countries (Germany, the U.K., Spain, France, and Italy) require unbundling cable lines: http://www.oecd.org/sti/broadband/2-7.pdf. Unbundling of POTS in the US was not much of a boon, because DSL was a dead-end technology even then.

What Europe does isn't really a good benchmark for how to structure a telecom market, because all the big European countries have slower broadband than in the US: https://www.akamai.com/us/en/multimedia/documents/state-of-t... (the U.S. beats the U.K., Germany, Spain, France, Italy--which accounts for 2/3 of the population of the EU).

Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by TillE on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:39PM (#14616374)
VDSL is certainly not a "dead end". 50Mbit is available in most of Germany, with 100Mbit slowly rolling out.

A lot of people will opt for the cheaper standard DSL though (<16Mbit), which I suspect is what brings down the average. In the US you have little choice but to pay obscene prices for a very fast cable line, usually with a monthly cap.

Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by ferongr on Thursday June 22, 2017 @09:36PM (#14616598)
The 35b profile with active DSLAMs in neighborhood cabinets "may" reach 300mbps with a fully vectored network (but just a couple of loops not being vectored greatly reduces speeds [1]). It still requires lots of infrastructure upgrades, replacing the old passive cabinets with bigger active ones containing DSLAMs, laying lots of fiber around etc. I still think its a dead end and countries like Greece that only now are installing such networks are making a big mistake.

FTTB, either through G.FAST OR Ethernet is a better use of all that money in my opinion and it's a lot easier to upgrade in the future (either the building terminal or switcing to full fiber i.e. AON/GPON etc).

[1] https://i.imgur.com/39pCRjN.png

Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by candiodari on Saturday June 24, 2017 @03:31AM (#14624745)
I wonder about that. Obviously the future of internet connections is wireless. Why are we still bothering to hook up individual houses. Apartment blocks, perhaps. Houses ... why ?
Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by luca_ing on Friday June 23, 2017 @06:16AM (#14618107)
> VDSL is certainly not a "dead end". 50Mbit is available in most of Germany, with 100Mbit slowly rolling out.

Using increasingly involved techniques to get more speed out of a century-old technology is pretty much a dead end.

100Mbit is decent, but it comes at the price of * the wires needing to be very short by telco standards * the use of DSL vectoring, which creates mini-monopolies in the DSLAM and allows one provider (usually Telekom) to hold all users on that DSLAM hostage

And keep in mind that if we had fiber, we could probably get a Gbit.

Make no mistake, the strong position of DSL in Germany is the result of politics, not common sense.

Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by rayiner on Thursday June 22, 2017 @09:18PM (#14616537)
In the US, 100 Mbps availability hit 60% in 2014, and the next milestone is gigabit.
Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by doctorshady on Thursday June 22, 2017 @09:30PM (#14616587)
How often is the performance difference between 100 megabit and gigabit internet all that measurable, though? For that matter, how often do truly get even, say, 900 megabits allocated to you on that sort of connection?

I'm not doubting they actually give you a gigabit connection, but especially during peak hours, I doubt the transit links you hit would necessarily have that much to spare.

Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by zkms on Thursday June 22, 2017 @10:45PM (#14616830)
> How often is the performance difference between 100 megabit and gigabit internet all that measurable, though?

For doing backups/restores, in this age of multi-terabyte disks, fast network links (especially in the upload direction) are a necessity.

I don't mind some oversubscription, I can work around peak hours, hell, I'd love to temporarily trade away most of my downlink bandwidth in exchange for uplink bandwidth -- average upload speed is all that matters for this sort of large transfer.

Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by rayiner on Thursday June 22, 2017 @10:16PM (#14616729)
It's the tail end of the PM peak here, and I'm getting 420 mbps to my web host, about 450 to Azure (on a 500/500). I think it's growing pains from Verizon's gigabit rollout, because when I was at 300/300, I consistently got over the rated speed.
Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by abofh on Friday June 23, 2017 @02:49AM (#14617425)
In the US, if you don't have symmetric streams, the average high-speed stream is 6mbps/100mbps up/down. The next milestone is still going to discriminate against content producers, IT workers, and software engineers.

Compounding that, the latency comcast deliberately introduces into their network (I've got many ISP's to judge on here) makes the internet ugly, but only if you don't pay for their services.

What we need is not a target for faster downstream, but higher competition - I could give a shit about network neutrality if the providers offered network honesty: a 500 GB monthly limit is a 1.5mB stream - full stop.

Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by pjc50 on Friday June 23, 2017 @10:46AM (#14619536)
I'd actually dispute "slower broadband": from that doc I get

United Kingdom 16.3mbps average 91% above 4mbps United States 17.2mpbs average 88% above 4mbps

which implies that the US has a slightly different, more unequal curve where slightly fewer people have "adequate" broadband and a small number have much faster broadband.

Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by rayiner on Friday June 23, 2017 @12:10PM (#14620211)
I wouldn't say a "small number" have faster broadband in the U.S. than in Europe. In the U.S., 42% of people have above 15 mbps (enough for more than one Netflix HD stream at a time). In U.S. states that are as dense as the big European countries (Maryland, Delaware, etc.) that number is 50-60%. The U.K. is at 39%, but the other big European countries are much lower: Germany (30%), France (16%), and Italy (10%).

So I think it's fair to say that the U.S. curve is more unequal. There's more people without access to adequate broadband (in New Mexico, or inner-city Baltimore) than in Europe. But the median American likely has a faster broadband connection than the median European.

Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by Latty on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:07PM (#14616240)
I'm the UK, the vast, vast majority of cable infrastructure is owned by openreach (BT) because it used to be a government run service. While it's not a general requirement, it is one for them, which in effect means it is general.
Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by rayiner on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:23PM (#14616303)
Does BT have cable, or just DSL and fiber?
Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by Latty on Saturday June 24, 2017 @09:18PM (#14628170)
I was using "cable" to mean lines in general (not very clear, my bad) - it's almost all ADSL over phone lines, with FTTC in a lot of places now. The only other big network of physical cable is Virgin who run their own cable network.

Cable for TV was never a huge thing in the UK like it is in the states - satellite TV (Sky) was the bigger thing.

Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by resf on Thursday June 22, 2017 @09:01PM (#14616472)
They do ADSL, FTTN/VDSL and FTTP (very sporadically).
Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by andy_ppp on Thursday June 22, 2017 @07:00PM (#14615959)
If this is true why is my Virgin Media fibre pretty damn fast and reliable and every American seems to constantly whinge about their cable provider?
Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by rayiner on Thursday June 22, 2017 @07:25PM (#14616060)
What do you mean, "if this is true?" I linked my sources (Akamai and OECD)--you can see for yourself.

As far as that perception goes, my suspicion is that it has to do with the tech press/readership skewing young and urban. The U.S. is highly unusual in making the actual building of wires largely a state/local issue, and also in treating cities as ghettos instead of national priorities. Maryland, where I live, is a microcosm: if it were a country, it'd be just below Finland for broadband speeds. But it's only major city (Baltimore) is impoverished, and doesn't have fiber even though all the counties around it do. My neck of the state is pretty rural--large parts of it don't even have public water/sewer. But it's had fiber for a decade. Meanwhile, New York and Boston are just now getting fiber, and San Francisco still mostly doesn't have it.

Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by pjc50 on Friday June 23, 2017 @04:19AM (#14617718)
> treating cities as ghettos instead of national priorities

This sounds completely backwards, until you realise all persistent problems in the US can be traced to racism.

(I'm still unconvinced as to the idea that broadband is statistically "better" in the US but the customers complain far more. I suspect that a huge chunk of people prefer slow/cheap/reliable to fast/expensive, certainly once you get beyond about 10mbit.)

Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by andy_ppp on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:01PM (#14616212)
So what you’re saying is averages don’t give the whole picture?
Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by rayiner on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:20PM (#14616293)
If you're talking about how well a national regulatory regime works, nationwide or statewide averages are probably more relevant data points than anecdotes about specific cities.
Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by doctorshady on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:30PM (#14615498)
Back when I lived in the northwest, something similar happened; I had Comcast for a year for phone and internet, didn't like it, and decided to switch back to Centurylink.

During the Comcast install, I watched the guy physically break a part of the telephone network interface box. I just sorta assumed he was incompetent and fat fingered it, but the Centurylink guy who fixed it put some sort of weird plastic mold in place of the part that the Comcast guy broke. Ever since that happened, I've sorta half wondered whether that happens more often than not.

Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by Analemma_ on Thursday June 22, 2017 @03:26PM (#14614646)
> It's amazing to me that all these connections are still physicial (as opposed to some software-defined switching between providers). Something akin to software-defined networking.

What you're describing is called "local loop unbundling". Lots of other countries do it, it works great, and it would solve most if not all of the problems with the telco market in the US... so naturally these companies lobby hard to make sure it'll never happen.

Re:Comcast accused of cutting competitor’s wires to put it o... by Spooky23 on Thursday June 22, 2017 @10:33PM (#14616783)
It's amazing that traditional phone companies could do this in like 1995, and cable companies in New York could do this in 2000. (I had Earthlink service on Time Warner because my parents had a camp with phone but no cable service, and Earthlink gave you both)