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Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by thatwebdude on Thursday June 22, 2017 @03:10PM (#14614528)
> Most people in Silicon Valley subscribe to either the first or second school. Much of the rest of the country, including many truckers, favor the third. "I can tell the difference between a dead porcupine and a dead raccoon, and I know I can hit a raccoon, but if I hit a porcupine, I’m going to lose all the tires on the truck on that side," says Tom George, a veteran driver who now trains other Teamsters for the union’s Washington-Idaho AGC Training Trust. "It will take a long time and a lot of software to program that competence into a computer."

Driverless trucks are a very interesting concept. Once they're on the freeway, I would think most automation would work (relatively) well. But getting through traffic congestions, busy multi-turn-lane intersections, and making sure you don't sideswipe someone who's hugging the line seems rather complex given the different trailer dimensions and blind spots, (un)marked lanes and everything else it takes to get to the highway.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by maxerickson on Thursday June 22, 2017 @03:17PM (#14614577)
Why would the automated system have blind spots though? If it is viable at $50,000 it is probably viable at $100,000 or $200,000 (automated trucks will roughly double the efficiency of driving because of more hours on the road).

I would think that a physics model would also give a reasonable automated system superior control over where the trailer is at a given moment (and to account for different trailers).

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by ben_jones on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:16PM (#14614978)
Don't forget what happens when people find out they can abuse driverless vehicles. Cutting them off, getting closer to them, slowing down in front of them, etc. God knows what commuters will do to them in the Boston area.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by paganel on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:26PM (#14615482)
> Cutting them off, getting closer to them, slowing down in front of them, etc.

My brother is a lorry driver who frequently crosses the Turkish - Bulgarian border with his truck (as in once every 2 weeks). Once or twice he caught refugees (or whatever you want to call them) trying to get inside his trailer by cutting through the thick textile material that covers it, while he was awaiting at the border. You generally do not whant people mixing with your industrial equipment while the truck drives at 90-100 km/h. In other cases it happened to him that other people had stolen diesel gas from his tank while he was asleep during the mandatory break (this happened somewhere in Western Europe, I forget where).

And leaving aside all this, assuming that bad people won't suddenly stop stealing and generally doing bad stuff to unattended expensive material (like trucks and the things that the trucks carry), being a truck driver you're also doing lots, and lots of bureaucracy work. I once shared the cabin with him as a passenger during one of his routes, while we passed two European borders. The amount of paperwork he had to fill in was mind-blogging, I half-jokingly told him that his job looks more like a clerk-job than being an actual driver. Now, lots of clerk jobs have already been automated, I know that, but it mostly happened in the private sector, inside private companies doing business with other private companies. But once your clerk-like job involves having to do business with several State-like entities things become a lot more complicated, with legislation changing once every 6 months, being very diverse from State to State etc.

What I'm trying to say is that theoretically the self-driving problem looks achievable for trucks, but once you get into the messy details things become a lot more complicated.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by dx034 on Friday June 23, 2017 @05:02AM (#14617856)
Driverless trucks will be better protected, not worse. You can lock the vehicle much better if there's no driver who needs access to it. Cameras everywhere will mean that the control center sees people approaching the truck much earlier than drivers at the moment (who won't see it at all if you keep in the blind spot). It's the same as robbing an ATM. Theoretically also unattended but well enough secured that few people do it. The insurance premium for cash in an ATM is lower than in a bank branch where the teller can access it. A driver doesn't provide a lot of protection against serious theft, video surveillance could deter more people.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by kafkaesq on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:52PM (#14615628)
You generally do not want people mixing with your industrial equipment while the truck drives at 90-100 km/h.

He should let them ride with him in the cab up front, then.

It's the human thing to do - and in another universe (or if this universe were configured only slightly differently) they could be his own family, after all.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by toomanybeersies on Thursday June 22, 2017 @07:05PM (#14615981)
Regardless of anybodies sympathies for refugees, this is simply not going to achieve anything.

They are not going to let you cross the border with a cab filled with refugees/asylum seekers/undocumented immigrants.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by kafkaesq on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:30PM (#14616335)
Then put them in the back while you drive a careful 50km/h the first few clicks before and after the border.

The point is, I'm actually amazed at the downvotes, and that people aren't naturally, viscerally having a more human response -- "For heaven's sake, can't I think of a way to help these people? They're fearing for their lives, after all!" -- rather than the response described in the post I was responding to: "Oh shit, it's risky/complicated! Avoid, avoid!"

Especially given this history, among other sordid events in the past:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by smm2000 on Friday June 23, 2017 @02:49AM (#14617421)
I doubt they are fearing for their life in Turkey. They definitely will make more money in Europe but it's not like Turkey is putting them in gas chamber or something.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by kafkaesq on Friday June 23, 2017 @04:38PM (#14622573)
To suggest that these people are out to make a quick buck is just -- pure snark.

And to think that just because Turkey isn't currently running gas chambers that these people have nothing to worry about is, unfortunately, very naive:

Amnesty International has slammed Turkey for expelling dozens of Syrian refugees to their war-stricken country, saying the move is in violation of international law.

According to a new report released by the UK-based rights group, a total of about 80 Syrian asylum seekers, who were previously held incommunicado in a detention center in the Turkish city of Erzurum, were forced to leave for their country, with 50 more people facing deportation.

-- source: look it up yourself

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by ben_jones on Monday June 26, 2017 @12:27PM (#14637993)
Please watch this http://imgur.com/gallery/zkafo . You are giving life-threatening advice.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by walshemj on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:33PM (#14615118)
And going across boarders I could see people smugglers hiring hackers to slow down the vehicles so that there clients could board the trucks.

Drug smugglers are another group that could use this and how would a cop stop an autonomous vehicle to search it they would have to have a back door which could be abused

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by devrandomguy on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:04PM (#14615353)
Stopping a safe, automated vehicle would be trivial. Just dress up as a road worker, and hold up a stop sign. Do it above a manhole cover, and you have easy access to the bottom of the vehicle. A remote human supervisor might not even notice what was going on.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by arbuge on Thursday June 22, 2017 @07:10PM (#14615998)
This seems like a vulnerability for human-operated vehicles also.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by khalilravanna on Thursday June 22, 2017 @06:42PM (#14615877)
Admittedly it seems just as trivial to mitigate with some more sensors e.g. weight sensors to detect the load being modified while stopped, cameras to detect aberrant movement inside the cab, etc.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by kcanini on Thursday June 22, 2017 @07:15PM (#14616013)
Let the arms race begin!
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by dx034 on Friday June 23, 2017 @05:05AM (#14617862)
And what would currently happen? Killing the road worker? No, every truck would stop and you could operate in the driver's blind spot. Autonomous vehicles won't have blind spots so that the operator can identify the theft much faster.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by cakedoggie on Thursday June 22, 2017 @07:36PM (#14616105)
I think you have been watching too much ocean's eleven. This would be trivial to fix with a sensor on the bottom.

> Ok, but what if the refugees were lowered by a helicop...

Sensor on the roof. Sensor on the side. Sensor everywhere.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by vkou on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:56PM (#14615293)
Autonomous trucks will be searched just like non-autonomous ones at borders.

Outside of national borders, smuggling felonious quantities of hard drugs from state to state is already trivial.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by dogecoinbase on Thursday June 22, 2017 @06:17PM (#14615737)
Smuggling is trivial currently, but not without risking incarceration or death. Once the contraband can be ferried by an autonomous vehicle without risk to the operator, the incentives will change dramatically.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by mentat on Thursday June 22, 2017 @07:20PM (#14616040)
Has been done between Mexico and California already. Aside from that, many of the drivers aren't really given a choice, so the risk is irrelevant.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by vkou on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:41PM (#14616385)
Tag the vehicle, follow it, arrest everyone who comes to pick the drugs up.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by bluGill on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:30PM (#14615090)
Don't forget that the driverless vehicle will have tracking. Expect to get a ticket complete with video if you do things like that. If you are costing the trucking company money they might be willing to send people to court against you as well (taking you to court might not be worth it, but the teach people a lesson aspect might make it worth it anyway)
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by dsfyu404ed on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:15PM (#14615426)
Issuing that traffic ticket would not be a good long-term PR move for any organization that needs to work with the public (like the police).

Trucks getting cut off is the norm in many areas. Punishing people for normal is generally not smart.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by wernercd on Thursday June 22, 2017 @06:46PM (#14615900)
Punishing people for "normal" has a way of discouraging "normal" and changing it into "not as normal".
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by smileysteve on Friday June 23, 2017 @02:20AM (#14617333)
> Cutting them off, getting closer to them, slowing down in front of them, etc

Car drivers already take advantage of trucks leaving a safe distance or their slow acceleration in traffic.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by wcummings on Thursday June 22, 2017 @06:40PM (#14615870)
I live in (ok, ok, near) Boston and I constantly fantasize about this. I don't commute by car I look forward to riding my bike 5mph in front of driverless cars, at least if they don't run me over...

I also have to imagine they will be a ripe target for vandalism, especially if operators don't aggressively remove graffiti.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by wernercd on Thursday June 22, 2017 @06:44PM (#14615890)
"ripe target for vandalism"

And they'll also be surrounded by camera's and hard drives. I would imagine that the sensors that can see through fog could also get more detail than the average CCV camera - meaning that even with a mask, you're going to get a lot of detail on vandals or road hazards (aka: You going 5mph in front of one)

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by dx034 on Friday June 23, 2017 @05:08AM (#14617878)
Vandalism already happens to cars. As are cyclists who go 5mph in front of a car (on a road where it cannot overtake you) to take revenge on a driver they don't like.

None of that will change and that's not dependent on drivers.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by smileysteve on Friday June 23, 2017 @02:23AM (#14617341)
> I also have to imagine they will be a ripe target for vandalism

Is a lone driver with a tire iron, mag-lite, or billy club really the deterrent to this? Especially, the stereotypical obese early 50s driver?

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by nimos on Thursday June 22, 2017 @10:56PM (#14616854)
I wonder what % of truck driving is highway driving? If you are covering the trucks in cameras and you have the control software there already it seems pretty easy(relatively at least) to have someone take over via remote for the last mile.

AI sensors combined with some sort of 360 view VR with drivers for the last mile with full AI on highways/freeways would allow for progressive roll out of self driving technology. A lot of video to push down the wire though but probably manageable with modern codecs.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by thatwebdude on Friday June 23, 2017 @11:56AM (#14620083)
pretty much every sleeper truck is designed to be mostly highway. The ones that stay in-city are the single cab designs. This isn't always true for Owner-Operators taking a buck where they can get it, but most trucks are designed for this use. There's no other cost-efficient way to get goods across cities/states/provinces/countries/continents.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by timemachiner on Thursday June 22, 2017 @03:24PM (#14614633)
> Once they're on the freeway, I would think most automation would work (relatively) well.

That's assuming nice weather conditions. Mudslides, flash floods, extreme code, ice, snow, etc. needs to be taken into consideration.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by eduren on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:22PM (#14615029)
Of course those need to be taken into consideration but to be fair, aren't most of the conditions you listed dealt with by a human driver pulling over and waiting it out/calling for assistance? That's exactly what an autonomous system could do in those situations.

And if there _are_ dangerous conditions that a human driver could navigate but an autonomous one would give up on, is that so bad? The industry is making enough efficiency gains to offset that.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by thatwebdude on Friday June 23, 2017 @11:59AM (#14620104)
Doesn't most self-driving protocols out right now demand perfect conditions to even operate?
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by adrianN on Friday June 23, 2017 @01:53AM (#14617262)
In those conditions human drivers don't work very well either. I'd rather have computers that drive very slowly because they can't see very well instead of humans that drive faster than they can see because "I'm a good driver".
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by jakeogh on Friday June 23, 2017 @03:46AM (#14617600)
People are astonishingly good at dealing with unconventional conditions. This idea that computers are 'smarter' than humans (that program them) in the realm of driving is amusing and terrifying at the same time. Calling them 'self driving cars' is oxymoronic. They are pre-programmed cars.

The people duped into this will lose their driving skills and pretend it's other humans fault for not conforming to the program they invested in. I'm not all that worried, the market will sort this out in the US at least.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by thatwebdude on Friday June 23, 2017 @12:00PM (#14620110)
If not the market, definitely the regulations once traffic reports start piling up... Even faster when there's no one behind the wheel to blame.

Can't even imagine a manslaughter case where a driverless vehicle killed someone. Who's at fault? Most fault current resides in the driver, as they're the final call.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by jakeogh on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @03:46AM (#14652382)
'Who's at fault?'

Exactly. Humans. Humans are the bugs in their code. The control writers will argue for more laws so their programs work. The possibility that their code revisions are futile will dismissed as [insert buzzword]. I am excited that we get to watch this play out. The wildcard is biological CPU's: http://www.research.ufl.edu/publications/explore/v10n1/extra...

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by JauntTrooper on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:29PM (#14615086)
Remote driving, though, might solve for this. You still have a human to react to unforeseen circumstances, but you can switch up the remote driver easily so you can work in shifts, drive 24/7, not stop for bathrooms/food etc.

I'd imagine the quality of life would be significantly better too since they would work in the same spot with co-workers and could go home every day.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by kstoneman on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:11PM (#14615400)
>I'd imagine the quality of life would be significantly better too since they would work in the same spot with co-workers and could go home every day.

Actually, working in the same spot with coworkers was exactly the reason I started driving a truck. Going back to that would be an enormous downgrade in quality of life for me and a lot of drivers.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by bluGill on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:31PM (#14615103)
I grew up in Minnesota where we learned to deal with bad roads. We did drive on them and got good at it. The truth is we went in the ditch a lot when the weather was bad.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by needlessly on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:53PM (#14616438)
Driverless trucks aren't going to 100% perfect. They just need to be significantly safe and more reliable than humans.

Humans get sleepy, get emotional, zone out, and make all kinds of mistakes all the time.

The first generation of driverless trucks will still have a human as passenger to be backup in case of mistakes. You may be thinking, "What's the point if there will still be a human there? s/he might as well drive." Well, humans still need breaks and can help give feedback to Truck for it to improve.

The first generation won't be perfect, but it will be on its way.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by ams6110 on Thursday June 22, 2017 @09:18PM (#14616540)
More reliable than humans is too low a bar. People mostly forgive each other's imperfections, not so much a computer's. A self-driving truck is going to need to be at least an order of magnitude or more safer than a human.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by empath75 on Thursday June 22, 2017 @11:51PM (#14616975)
I am extremely skeptical that a porcupine would take out a truck tire.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by thatwebdude on Friday June 23, 2017 @12:02PM (#14620127)
I'm not doubting the professional truck driver, though. Do you have experience running over porcupines? I do not. They've seen a lot. Enough to draw conclusions from fringe conditions like this.

Perhaps this is more of an occurrence on re-treads.

Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by russdill on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:50PM (#14616426)
If dead porcupines are a problem, the system can be trained to identify them.
Re:Truckers Working Alongside Coders Trying to Make Driverle... by thatwebdude on Monday June 26, 2017 @09:57AM (#14636800)
They're not dead, yet.