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Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by oh_sigh on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @02:12PM (#14597026)
Nit: we don't absorb gigabits of information. Perhaps there is that much bombarding our senses St any given moment but the amount that actually makes it into our brain is far less, probably on the order of a hundreds of bits/sec max
Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by ABCLAW on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @02:35PM (#14597253)
This is incorrect. Even the spinal nerve bundle processes orders of magnitude more information just in keeping you balanced on your feet or chair.

Perhaps you meant we only commit a few hundred bits of information to long term memory per second under uninteresting conditions?

*Sorry for piling on! I didn't see the other two replies and went to get coffee before finishing my reply.

Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by oh_sigh on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @02:50PM (#14597363)
I guess I have a question of what OP meant when saying your sensory organs "absorb" gigabits per second of information. In my reading, I took that to mean sensory input that actually makes it into the brain. After all, asphalt absorbs that same information, but I don't think that is a particularly interesting use of the infirmation.

In another reply I quoted research that shows that only ~10 kbits/sec make it even into layer 4 of v1 from the optic nerve.

If you have anything talking about spinal processing I'd love to read it.

Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by ABCLAW on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @03:54PM (#14597977)
Not sure what you're looking for specifically, but a quick search for Spinal Nerve (or bundle!) Processing will give you a ton of results. Restrict yourself to pub med or google scholar, because there are a lot of mediocre results.

I think the main confusion here was over the definition of 'absorb'. Your version is much narrower than I'd use. The sensory molecular pathways and accompanying structure of nerves themselves produce significant processing right at the outset which your definition would entirely discount. There is no reason to discount what would otherwise become 'pre-processing' in your model.

Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by Someone on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @03:38PM (#14597818)
oh_sigh:

"the amount that actually makes it into our brain is far less, probably on the order of a hundreds of bits/sec max"

ABCLAW:

"Even the spinal nerve bundle processes orders of magnitude more information just in keeping you balanced on your feet or chair."

Does that information actually make it to the brain? I thought sending a signal to the brain to process it there and then send back balancing signals would take too much time to keep you on your feet (at around 100m/s, a nerve signal would take about 1/50 of a second to move from legs to brain and back)

There also is evidence that your spine can do quite a bit of the muscle control needed for balancing on its own. See knee reflex and spinal cat (completely cut the spinal cord of a cat in the neck; notice that cat is paralyzed. Hang cat in harness, with feet on a treadmill. Turn on treadmill; cat walks (possibly only after some training; I don't know the details). Known since the 1950's. See https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/spinal-cats-walk/ (paywalled)).

Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by ABCLAW on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @03:53PM (#14597963)
Not all of the information processed in the main spinal nerve bundles make it to the brain. Note that I'm not replying to the 'reaches our brain' portion of his statement with my counter-example. I think that's a very arbitrary place to delimit the human information processing system.
Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by andrepd on Wednesday June 21, 2017 @11:12PM (#14609876)
The cerebellum is part of the brain, and it is responsible for balancing and motor coordination.
Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by dTal on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @02:19PM (#14597091)
So your visual cortex isn't in your brain? Would you care to point out which region(s) of the brain only receive hundreds of bits/sec?

Somebody should tell the lossy video compression folks.

Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by oh_sigh on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @02:40PM (#14597287)
Yes, it is in your brain. But if you think that your visual cortex receives anything akin to a high fidelity "picture", then you are mistaken. Regarding lossy image compression, you're free to look at something briefly and try to redraw it from scratch. Even if your drawing skills are perfect, you will find that your picture will be filled with confabulations and stereotypes.

> Because of a limited number of axons in the optic nerves (approximately 1 million axons in each) only ~6x10^6 bits/sec leave the retina and only 10^4 make it to layer IV of V1 [22,23]. These data clearly leave the impression that visual cortex receives an impoverished representation of the world, a subject of more than passing interest to those interested in the processing of visual information [24]. Parenthetically, it should be noted that estimates of the bandwidth of conscious awareness itself (i.e. what we ‘see’) are in the range of 100 bits/sec or less [22,23]

Estimates of quantified human sensory system throughput. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/post/Estimates_of_quantified_hu... [accessed Jun 20, 2017].

Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by ClassyJacket on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @05:26PM (#14598767)
You seem to be confusing the idea of the brain storing information in long term memory with the brain receiving information.

Not all information processed is stored.

If the brain didn't receive hundreds of megabits of information per second, nobody would be able to tell the difference between SD and HD video.

Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by oh_sigh on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:38PM (#14599186)
Considering the optic nerve can only tramsit ~6 Mbits/sec, and layer 4 of v1 in your visual cortext only gets ~10 kbits/sec, I would say you are wrong.

To test this, try seeing if you can distinguish HD from SD without the use of your fovea. You have one highly detailed section of your eye, and the rest is low quality input which is "upgraded" through previous sightings with the fovea and your brains knowledge of how it thinks the world works.

See 'foveated rendering' which will be important in the VR world, to learn more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foveated_rendering

Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by extr on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:30PM (#14600444)
I would argue that you're confusing "brain receiving complete information" with "brain doing inference on what information it does receive to get you close enough". You don't need the full screen to tell that the image is SD vs HD, you just need to glance at a small segment. That's not 100s of mb/sec. You know that the rest of the video is happening in your peripheral, and maybe you can tell what's going on. But in actuality you're receiving a very low bit rate version of that, and your brain is simply telling you "X & Y are happening in HD in your peripheral" and it's convincing enough.
Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by dredmorbius on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:13PM (#14599060)
I'd argue this isn't a confusing but a distinguishing.

oh_sigh is being downvoted for truth.

Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by dredmorbius on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:17PM (#14599071)
I've been tackling this from a different PoV (see recent comments) of audio bitrate sensing (20 Hz is the beat/tone boundary, where beats become tones, corresponding to about 0.2 MB/day of data acquisition), or of speaking and reading rates.

At 100 words/min spoken speech, humans can transmit about 1.1 MB/day sustained (24 hours without interruption).

At 600 words/min reading rate (a very high rate, roughly double the college-educated adult average), a human can absorb a maximum of less than 7 MB/day.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14599050

Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by stan_rogers on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:35PM (#14599165)
If you think that the information transferred by human speech consists only of the words spoken, you have a rather shallow view of language. You're also processing information taken from pace, pitch, timbre, intonation, volume, timing and direction (among other things). The written word is to speech what choreographic notation is to dance - it's enough to give you the gist, but you wouldn't mistake it for the real thing.
Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by dredmorbius on Wednesday June 21, 2017 @02:08AM (#14601155)
You're arguing a claim I didn't make.
Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by pwildani on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:16PM (#14600171)
Each beat is probably better considered a symbol, so by your analysis the human audio channel is around 20 baud not 20 bits/s. The symbol size obviously has a large impact on the information bit rate.

We can estimate the size of a symbol though: 13b for primary tones(20khz range at about 3Hz resolution) + 4b for rising/falling/etc tonal patterns + 7b for volume (1dB detection over 120db range) + (42 phonemes in english so round up to 256 for convenience) 8b for phoneme patterns + 2 ears preprocessed for 2d directions is maybe 4b direction and 4b distance gives a total of around 40b per symbol.

So with that wild approximation, it's at 800 bps, or 8.64 MB / 24h

Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by dredmorbius on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:21PM (#14600417)
A fair argument, and yes, that expands the channel somewhat.

(My first posts on seeing this concept, elsewhere, had confused bits and bytes, so I ended up with 1.7 MB rather than 0.2 MB.)

But the point remains that that what we're discussing is almost certainly a maximum upper bound on human conscious information processing capacity. And that the values are ... pretty limited, relative to the amounts of information our machines can fling at us.

8.6 MB/day means that on average we're looking at 2/3 of that for waking hours or 5.7 MB. If you spend half your waking hours at work, that's about 2.9 MB of information acquired per day at work, max, over audio track.

And that's the tail-end of a 3.5 billion year R&D effort.

Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by giardini on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:13PM (#14599061)
Oh_sigh says:"...we don't absorb gigabits of information."

We're talking bits/second (bandwidth) here, not simply bits. So given that...

The human visual pathway has a bandwidth of about 10 megabits per second, so we build the current "view" somewhere in our brain and constantly update it with the stream of data from the visual pathways (there are several). So we're always scanning visually, always updating our view with new info.

Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by oh_sigh on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:36PM (#14599170)
Well, OP never specified, so neither did I, but I did suspect that they were talking about per second. To say we absorb gigabits of information over 90 years is a different story, and one which I assumed OP wasn't talking about.
Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by jostmey on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @02:16PM (#14597069)
We definitely absorb huge amounts of information -- but only a fraction of that information reaches the conscious level.

Just google search "unconscious visual processing"

Re:A Language That Linguists Thought Couldn’t Exist by oh_sigh on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @02:51PM (#14597373)
Not even concuious level - I'm talking about information that even makes it into all but the shallowest levels of your brain