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Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by halflings on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @08:06AM (#14593881)
Yep, and it does much more than that: it forces companies to actually wipeout your data when you ask them to (not just flip some bit and still keep that data, like facebook infamously does), and also set strict TTLs (Time To Live) for any derivative data that the user cannot explicitly delete.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by 3pt14159 on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @08:54AM (#14594200)
How do I follow conflicting laws? One country says "keep all data for 90 days to aid law enforcement" the other says "delete it immediately" which is it?
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by kbart on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:02AM (#14594685)
"How do I follow conflicting laws? One country says "keep all data for 90 days to aid law enforcement" the other says "delete it immediately" which is it?"

GDPR is EU wide regulation that trumps national privacy laws. It doesn't even need to be approved by individual members, so when it goes into effect on 25 May 2018, it will be working EU-wide on the same day. Furthermore, it affects companies all over the world that serves EU citizens. There's much skepticism on how EU will enforce this law worldwide, but for now it was quite successful dealing with big companies, remember: Microsoft vs EU (paid €561 million fine), multiple cases of Google vs EU (right to be forgotten, Ireland tax rulling, ongoing case vs Android), Facebook/WhatsApp vs EU (€110 million fine) etc. To answer your question: no, there will be no conflicting laws - if you serve EU citizens, you must follow GDPR. From my personal perspective, GDPR is one of those not-so-often moments that I'm proud of EU.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by wav-part on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:06AM (#14595166)
> Furthermore, it affects companies all over the world that serves EU citizens.

No gdpr applies if companies target EU citizens [1][2]. My personal opinion of the law is that its as useless as cookie law but way more costly and unpredictable.

[1] (122), Pg 22, https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fec.europa.eu...

[2] Pg 13, https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linklate...

The mere accessibility of your website by individuals in the Union or use of the languages of one of the Member States in the Union (if the same as the language of your home state) should not by itself make you subject to the Regulation. However, the following factors are a strong indication that you are offering goods or services to individuals in the Union and so are subject to the Regulation:

> Language - You are using the language of a Member State and that language is not relevant to customers in your home state (e.g. the use of Hungarian by a US website).

> Currency - You are using the currency of a Member State, and that currency is not generally used in your home state (e.g. showing prices in Euros).

> Domain name - Your website has a top level domain name of a Member State (e.g. use of the .de top level domain).

> Delivery to the Union - You will deliver your physical goods to a Member State (e.g. sending products to a postal address in Spain).

> Reference to citizens - You use references to individuals in a Member State to promote your goods and services (e.g. if your website talks about Swedish customers who use your products).

> Customer base - You have a large proportion of customers based in the Union.

> Targeted advertising - You are targeting advertising at individuals in a Member State (e.g. paying for adverts in a newspaper).

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by halflings on Wednesday June 21, 2017 @11:02AM (#14604358)
All the big (and smaller) players in tech are working hard to implement all the requirements of this law (control over what data is stored, TTLs, encryption).

How is this useless for end-users? It forces companies to encrypt this data at rest, and allow users to delete it when they want.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by an27 on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:19AM (#14595257)
I can't really envision Facebook or Google removing all EU-only language options and doing away with targeted advertisements, so how come you think these criteria won't work?
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by tajen on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:38AM (#14594963)
Microsoft vs EU yielded €2bn fines. I had made the calculations myself in 2013, I can't find the source, but here's most of the details: https://www.neowin.net/news/since-2004-the-eu-has-fined-micr...
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by rattray on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:07AM (#14595179)
I think they meant eg; US vs EU.

EU law does not subsume US law.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by Tuna-Fish on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:22AM (#14595278)
It is possible for there to be a situation where to offer some service, you have to either break the laws of one country or the other. In this situation, you simply cannot offer that service without exposing yourself to legal consequences.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by k__ on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:35AM (#14595395)
Well, nothing stops a company to implement different stuff for different countries.

Companies did this before the internet and even with internet they did it for China regulations.

I mean, even translation to different languages is basically "special implementation" for different countries...

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by Tuna-Fish on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @12:33PM (#14596023)
That's not always sufficient. You can end up in a situation where an American court demands records that concern European customers. In that situation, handing them over gets you penalized in an European court, and not handing them over gets you penalized in an American court. Both will have the ability to really hurt you, and "the other court tells me not to" is not a defense at either of them.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by harperlee on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:01AM (#14594244)
I would guess that one solution is to keep EU citizens' data in the EU to avoid it being subject to other laws. And possibly having separate companies by country.

As an analogy, if I recall correctly banks have very stringent laws to follow regarding data export and money export to other countries. The solution they choose is to have a bank per country, not a global bank.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by strictnein on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:35AM (#14595401)
> I would guess that one solution is to keep EU citizens' data in the EU to avoid it being subject to other laws.

This is exactly what is being done by the large corporations that can afford to do it. European datacenters staffed by Europeans. Americans are not allowed to view any PII for any European (at least with the company I work at).

Russia requires the same thing, although they just want the servers in their country so they can put a SORM-3 alongside it and intercept whatever data they want.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SORM

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by dmoy on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:44AM (#14595480)
Ah yeah 242-FZ, definitely a different purpose in Russia
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by AndyMcConachie on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:14AM (#14594326)
There is no easy answer to this question.

For example, what happens if US courts demand data you have stored on Irish servers,[1] but an EU citizen asks that you destroy this data?

Do you destroy the data and risk being charged with destruction of evidence in the US? Or do you keep it and risk being non-compliant with the GDPR?

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/apr/29/us-court-...

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by throwawaymanbot on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:09AM (#14594734)
I would imagine, since the EU is where the Data resides, and the EU is the legal jurisdiction, that the EU would take precedence. Its monumental nationalistic and legal hubris to think that American law takes precedence anywhere in the world, let alone with an ally as large as the EU.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by luma on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:06AM (#14595168)
Be that as it may, there is nothing to stop US authorities from charging US companies with crimes if they were to comply with EU laws. They are in direct conflict, and any internet-based company operating on nearly any scale is in danger of running afoul of these sorts of issues. This isn't a Google/Facebook only problem, this is a problem for any web service that might store user data.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by throwawaymanbot on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @04:13PM (#14598164)
This is a US Govt overreach problem. Not an EU directive problem.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by k-mcgrady on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:29AM (#14595350)
Maybe the EU/US Privacy Shield will help handle situations like the above.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by ryanlol on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @12:26PM (#14595951)
>there is nothing to stop US authorities from charging US companies with crimes if they were to comply with EU laws

There is nothing stopping you from shooting yourself in the foot either. (Or stabbing I guess in case you don't have access to firearms)

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by alexeldeib on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:26AM (#14594415)
Just FYI, this case was reversed on appeal (i.e., against the government). I recall there being some buzz with the government potentially pushing for further court action, but as far as I know that's the current status.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by ryanlol on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @12:25PM (#14595943)
>There is no easy answer to this question.

Of course there is. You comply with both laws or suffer the consequences. If you can't comply with both, you choose the cheaper law to break. If that's too expensive, your business sucks.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by CyberThijs on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:02AM (#14594249)
One of the goals of the GDPR is to consolidate all the data protection laws of the EU member states. So within the EU this shouldn't pose a problem. For the US, I assume this is covered by the EU-US data shield. I assume a similar construct will be necessary for GB once it leaves the EU.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by kough on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @08:59AM (#14594233)
You ask your team of lawyers who can make a good decision for your company based on your business goals and the relative values of complying with each of the competing laws, along with the relative risks associated with failing to do so.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by louhike on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:58AM (#14594641)
Company may have to treat the data differently according to where the user lives (yes, it can be a mess). For EU countries, the EU law has priority (except for the constitution).
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by hamilyon2 on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:35AM (#14595394)
Encrypt it with key that only the law enforcement has. Keep actual encrypted data on a medium outside of coutry where it is illegal.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by s_dev on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:26AM (#14594864)
There won't be conflicting laws -- the GDPR is a EU wide policy and supersedes any laws on the books in that nation.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by yammajr on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:31AM (#14594904)
Except that not every country belongs to the EU. If you have customers globally, you'll still have to deal with conflicting requirements.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by abandonliberty on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:35AM (#14594935)
Until we have One World Government we'll have to respect the laws of the countries we do business in.

This is an example of why some local services are winning out against global competitors. Respect for and knowledge of their specific niche.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by kodablah on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:19AM (#14595252)
So on my ad-supported site that does not ask users where they are from, I will have to put a geo-ip filter to keep EU people off in order to avoid fines? Otherwise, do we accept that statements like "we'll have to respect the laws of the countries we do business in" is a bit generic and over-reaching in a global medium? I have not read the proposed law and I trust this situation is covered, but I am still annoyed at every region having so many of it's own internet rules (not EU specific, goes with them all). Granted explicit business w/ explicit customers giving explicit monies in nation-backed currencies does make it easy to follow this law, but not everyone's business is like this.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by ForHackernews on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @12:09PM (#14595769)
Do you collect a lot of data about your users and not offer them any way to delete it?
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by kodablah on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @01:38PM (#14596675)
This is a hypothetical, so let's say yes. So, do I need to filter out my users to avoid fines? That may seem noble and great in this particular case, but it's a slippery slope. The more regionally-specific regulations that are introduced causing more work for companies, the more the ROI per customer in that region may reduce. Once it gets below 0 with the threat of fines for a company, the users might be cut off.

It seems all good for this specific policy because most of us agree with it globally. But data protectionism and/or extreme regional deviations/regulations in law will reduce the globalism everyone shares. Other options (such as educating the populace or encouraging competition) can be more effective than restrictions.

This is something to think about as the EU grows smaller, not larger. Even today, small companies with fewer EU users may stop and think about providing access at the cost of, e.g., building a portal for them to manage cookie settings.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by ForHackernews on Wednesday June 21, 2017 @04:15AM (#14601871)
> This is something to think about as the EU grows smaller, not larger.

I guess we'll see what happens with Brexit, but I would argue that the EU is growing in global importance and leadership. With the USA's recent NSA scandals, isolationist rhetoric, and backing out of international environmental agreements, I think we're going to see the EU increasingly set the tone for international trade.

I'm sure there will be plenty of tech firms that choose to serve only US customers (in the same way that there are Chinese-only and Russian-only companies today), but competing "globally" will mean following the EU's lead.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by abandonliberty on Wednesday June 21, 2017 @11:10AM (#14604452)
I understand your concern; if restrictions become overly complex and regional compliance may start to limit innovation (e.g. EU VAT based on destination country).

That's a different type of restriction than respecting user privacy because you can't apply the same approach everywhere. A company could easily extend the same rights to all their users. If your offering needs to violate user privacy to exist, maybe it shouldn't.

>Other options (such as educating the populace or encouraging competition) can be more effective than restrictions.

This appears disingenuous.

1. Competition: In your example above respecting user rights nets <0 ROI. There can be no competition here that respects user rights, so how would this help the situation? Conversely, restrictions will encourage competition by protecting less profitable and wealthy ventures from predatory global competition solely focused on maximizing profit.

2. Educating: You're seeking to shift responsibility from experts to laypeople, then blame the laypeople for their lack of education. It's like suggesting we should eliminate building codes then educate people on proper construction. Basically you are advocating for schools and high-rises that collapse.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by s_dev on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:55AM (#14595090)
If they aren't part of the EU or strongly associated with EU institutions why would the GDPR apply to them?

What the EU is trying to do is make it so countries outside the EU only have to think of the EU as a single country. This is why theres a single market and single currency.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by dordoka on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:37AM (#14594952)
You just need to have different requirements per country, I honestly don´t see any conflict there.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by tpush on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:48AM (#14595040)
So follow EU laws regarding EU customers and US laws regarding US customers.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by yellow_postit on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:04AM (#14594696)
Do smaller companies get less onerous requirements? This is achievable for mid and large companies to comply with but may further stifle EU innovation.

I think this is a good set of data protections and hope there are ways to make compliance incredibly low friction.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by Piskvorrr on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:16AM (#14594780)
Nope. This is an upcoming requirements nightmare that people seem to ignore in the vain hope that it will ignore them.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by jessah on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:53AM (#14595084)
Why is the GDPR an requirements nightmare? It's one ruleset for the whole EU instead one ruleset for each EU state. And the GDPR seem to be not more complicate than the individuel laws where before.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by Piskvorrr on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:41AM (#14595455)
"This ruleset you have? Oh, just merge it with the old ruleset; the old laws are not being repealed. Merging is easy, right?"

In other words, it's not a replacement: it is an additional set of rules to keep (although most of it would be a superset of various national laws).

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by lokedhs on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:42PM (#14599200)
It isn't? Are we talking about a different regulation?

I quote from the title of 2017/0003/COD COM (2017) 10:

    Proposal for a REGULATION OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT
    AND OF THE COUNCIL concerning the respect for private
    life and the protection of personal data in electronic
    communications and repealing Directive 2002/58/EC
    (Regulation on Privacy and Electronic Communications)
Note the word "repealing".
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by Piskvorrr on Wednesday June 21, 2017 @03:54AM (#14601777)
See, there's this thing called context: the meaning of the word changes through the surrounding words. If there is a word "repealing" in text, this does not usually mean "everything that's related is repealed" - it means exactly what it says on the tin: "repealing Directive 2002/58/EC" - nothing about repealing the existing state-level legislation (to repeat previous context, "It's one ruleset for the whole EU instead one ruleset for each EU state.")

My point still stands - you still need to conform to both GDPR and the state-specific legislation.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by lokedhs on Wednesday June 21, 2017 @04:50AM (#14602048)
It may be that I am the one who is misinformed here. My understanding was that 2017/0003/COD was about creating a replacement for 2002/58/EC. I haven't read all the documents, so I could very well be wrong.

But assuming that I am right, then a replacement directive would simply cause the states to update their laws and nothing would really change in terms of complexity compared to the situation before.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by sqeaky on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:16AM (#14595231)
If it just then 4% of revenue fine could well be 0 for startups. I presume they have some provision to prevent 0 euro fines, does anyone know about that provision?
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by jdcarter on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @12:47PM (#14596159)
From the wikipedia page: "fine up to 20,000,000 EUR or up to 4% of the annual worldwide turnover of the preceding financial year in case of an enterprise, whichever is greater"

So yea, a 20M EUR fine could destroy a startup.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by BearGoesChirp on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:42AM (#14594501)
Will it also have to be removed from backups?
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by dmoy on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @02:25PM (#14597142)
Almost certainly yes. Otherwise it's not actually removed.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by BearGoesChirp on Thursday June 22, 2017 @11:15AM (#14612798)
I've seen court ordered removal before and no one even considered backups and the impact on backup integrity had it been removed from backups. Especially when considering off site backups that the company will often not have immediate access to.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by em3rgent0rdr on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:08AM (#14594296)
Seems like it will be extremely difficult and expensive to guarantee all copies are deleted. Also, replication is necessary for caching and reliability. I worry about how such seemingly well-intentioned laws can have adverse unintended consequences.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by athenot on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:34AM (#14594462)
Think of it in terms of infosec: in a similar way, one could complain that having to sanitize secrets from RAM is harmful to performance (why can't we cache the result of decryption)… Yes it's an overhead but at the end of the day, we build technology to serve human goals, not the other way around.

(To be pedantic, we build technology to serve business goals, which are fulfilled within the larger context of serving human goals. Laws like these are to prevent shortcuts that would serve business goals while at the same time be detrimental to human goals.)

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by splouk on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:12AM (#14594318)
If I ask Facebook to delete my data, it should be deleted. Why does caching or reliability have anything to do with that?
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by dsp1234 on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:30AM (#14595354)
or reliability

If our company had to delete all customer data for a particular customer, then I would need to:

restore 6 months of database backups individually, remove the data, then run then take and store each backup again.

have 3 years worth of tape backups shipped back to us from our data protection company. Restore the databases off of them, delete the data, store them back on tape, and have them shipped back to the long term storage facility.

Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by estebank on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @01:16PM (#14596448)
Backup users' data encrypted with a recovery key. Delete the key, presto, the users' data is no longer accesible.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by Spivak on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:23AM (#14594395)
Would you be satisfied with, "this data will be deleted once the deletion filters though the caches and backups?"
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by calcifer on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:32AM (#14594446)
If "once" is a reasonable time (as defined by the regulation) then yes, I'd be satisfied.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by em3rgent0rdr on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:41AM (#14594991)
but I doubt the average user will be comfortable with such an experience.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by calcifer on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:48AM (#14595038)
I doubt the average user needs anything more than "as per EU regulations, your data will be deleted in X days" when they delete their account.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by em3rgent0rdr on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @04:04PM (#14598075)
It is not just the deletion when closing your account. It is the keeping track of all the copies that have to be made during regular operation (including packets in temporary buffers, periodic backups, cached version, redundant copies to hedge against data loss) just incase one day the user decides to delete.
Re:Euro MPs back end-to-end encryption for all citizens by closeparen on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @12:48PM (#14596173)
If you have backups, you might unintentionally restore an EU citizen's data. Pretty sure it's a crime to make backups (of user data) under this law.