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Re:Bancor Is Flawed by jnordwick on Monday June 19, 2017 @10:32PM (#14591804)
We need a futures market for crypto currencies. It would massively aid in hedging and price discovery. It would be easier for the price to adjust down to since there would be an easy way to short them too.
Re:Bancor Is Flawed by kcanini on Monday June 19, 2017 @10:37PM (#14591823)
Possibly dumb question: What is the point of a futures market for a currency?

I understand why futures markets exist for e.g. oranges (seasonal production cycles) and jet fuel (to avoid storing a years' worth yourself). But currencies are available 24/7/365 and have zero storage cost.

Re:Bancor Is Flawed by dfabulich on Monday June 19, 2017 @10:42PM (#14591846)
1) You may not be aware that there are futures markets for all fiat currencies, e.g. the USDX for dollars.

2) Currency futures markets exist to allow you to bet that the value of the currency will decrease, by offering to sell you the currency at price below the current market rate in the future.

In markets where there's no easy/legal way to bet that prices will decrease, asset bubbles are common, as "bulls" bid up the price, and "bears" just sit on the outside waiting for the bubble to pop.

If bears could bet that the value would decrease, this would lower the price of the asset today. In this way, price signaling can allow the market to reach an optimal shared opinion about the "true value" of an asset.

There are a lot of cryptocurrency bears who think that the long-term value of Bitcoin and Ether are approximately zero, that cryptocurrencies are in an asset bubble, and that this is wasting valuable time and money that the economy should spend on other things. By betting against cryptocurrency, bears could help to end the bubble in a safer and slower way.

(Or so they say. Sometimes future markets can exacerbate price instability when the whole market behaves irrationally.)

(The other reason futures markets exist is to allow people holding the currency to reduce ("hedge") the risk that the value of the currency will decrease. Thus they can make small bets against the currency, and if it rises, they'll still make money, and if the value falls, well, at least they'll win their bet.)

Re:Bancor Is Flawed by kcanini on Monday June 19, 2017 @11:42PM (#14592032)
Example: 1 USD is currently worth 0.79 GBP. If I wanted to bet that the USD would decrease in value against the GBP, I could enter into a futures contract (assuming the existence of a wiling counterparty) to purchase 0.75 GBP for 1 USD at a date 3 months in the future. If I was right, and the exchange rate drops to 1 USD = 0.7 GBP, then I profit 0.75 - 0.7 = 0.05 GBP.

Instead, I could have just bought the 0.79 GBP immediately and then waited 3 months, and then I would have profited even more: 0.79 - 0.7 = 0.09 GBP.

What does the existence of the futures market allow me to do that I can't already do in this scenario?

My point was that in cases where production is cyclical or storage fees are nonzero, it might be difficult/impossible to trade on the spot market, or it might be prohibitively expensive to hold the item yourself. But currencies don't have either of these problems.

Re:Bancor Is Flawed by Veratyr on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @02:53AM (#14592664)
> What does the existence of the futures market allow me to do that I can't already do in this scenario?

Leverage.

So I had a look at live data for an example. As of writing, 1GBP = 1.28 USD. Let's look at some example scenarios, assuming I believe 1 GBP will be worth 1.41 USD (+10%) in 3 months and want to make as much money as I can with a $100k investment.

- I buy USD from a regular bank or currency exchanger and wait 3 months. If the price goes up 10%, I make $10k. If the price goes down 10%, I lose $10k. If nothing happens, I lose nothing.

- I buy GBPUSD futures contracts. I need $7346.25 margin to open the contracts and $5877 to maintain them (per https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/index.php?f=marginnew&...) and I control 62500GBP ($80k) per contract. With $100k, I can buy 13 contracts and control $1.04M. If the price goes up 10%, I make $100k. If it goes down 10%, I lose $100k.

And then, for fun:

- I buy 86 options for a GBPUSD futures contract at a strike of $1.28 for $99k. If the price goes up 10%, I make $593k. If the price is at ~$1.30, I lose nothing. If the price is below $1.28, I lose $99k.

I'm no expert on futures however so there might be something wrong here, though the answer is definitely leverage.

Re:Bancor Is Flawed by joosters on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @03:55AM (#14592841)
You don't need a forward/future to introduce leverage.

We can trade GBP/USD between each other with as much leverage as we like without any future time conditions. All we need do is agree to pay each other the difference in value as the price changes, multiplied by our agreed leverage.

At some point, one or other of us can close the deal and settle the outstanding amount.

If you can't strike a deal directly, you go to an exchange or clearinghouse of some kind that will introduce buyers and sellers. Once again, leverage can be created without any forward or future.

Re:Bancor Is Flawed by jnordwick on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @04:03AM (#14592871)
You basically just recreated a forward where either party is able to unilaterally end the contract. (Forwards aren't standardized so can have weird quirks like this.)
Re:Bancor Is Flawed by joosters on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @04:46AM (#14593009)
Fair point. So where does the definition of a forward end? Could you then classify anything where you don't take delivery of the underlying entity as a 'forward', even if there is no end point and no promise of any kind of future time (however negotiable)? Where does the boundary lie?
Re:Bancor Is Flawed by jnordwick on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @05:07AM (#14593079)
A forward is just a future that isn't standardized and not traded on an exchange. Forwards are over the counter contracts that are written for each deal.

Forwards came first. You would go to an investment bank tell them you wanted to hedge whatever you had and they would write up the contract between you and them. Obviously there is no secondary market for these things and two contracts could have different terms in them.

So futures were invented. They standardized the underlying product (e.g. a type of wheat, a particular duration on bonds, a fineness of metal, etc), the expiration date, the delivery location (or financially settled), and the size. Now since all these contracts are fungible a market can be formed to trade them back and forth.

Those are basically the only differences.

Re:Bancor Is Flawed by joosters on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:04AM (#14593308)
I understand the terminology difference of forwards and futures, what I was asking about was when does a deal become a forward? The standard "I'll agree to buy oil from you at this price next year" is obviously a forward, but a deal where there may be no particular timeline or even a promise of one seems to be more hazy.
Re:Bancor Is Flawed by jnordwick on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @03:52PM (#14597941)
The dividing line would be the requirement for all contracts to be equivalent and traded on a venue. So an expiration date is probably a requirement. I have a hard time imagining such an open ended contract.
Re:Bancor Is Flawed by nivertech on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @02:34AM (#14592599)
1. What you describing is a forward contract, not futures.

2. Holding spot currency position is not "zero storage cost", you need to pay daily interest - futures has this built-in in their price.

3. Futures are leveraged

4. Futures contracts are standardized - which makes finding counterparty much easier and allow market makers.

5. Futures traded on regulated exchanges (CFTC in US), unlike spot FX - which is more similar to how crypto exchanges operate.

Re:Bancor Is Flawed by joosters on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @03:59AM (#14592856)
What you describing is a forward contract, not futures.

What's the point in splitting hairs. A future is a standardised form of a forward contract, generally so they can be traded more easily. It doesn't affect the underlying financial concepts.

Re:Bancor Is Flawed by jnordwick on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @04:09AM (#14592888)
I would love to do a real crypto FX futures market. Everything i read tonight seems so amateur hour.

Do the calendar spreads, implieds, volatility, high performance matching engine, and market makers.

Re:Bancor Is Flawed by joosters on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @04:24AM (#14592943)
Open up a crypto exchange, it's been amateur hour there for a good few years! Offer customers lots of impressive sounding derivatives features, and you can rake in the money. You don't even have to play fair, you can randomly close punters' positions at a whim, stage your own 'flash crashes' to force-sell some suckers, and eventually, when business has grown, your exchange can be 'hacked' and customer money can just vanish. Not your problem!

Existing exchanges have been amazed to find out that these 'hacks' aren't even the end of the money train, you can create derivates of the hacked money to let customers re-deposit and trade even further! It is an amazing new world of finance!

Re:Bancor Is Flawed by asdfaoeu on Monday June 19, 2017 @11:53PM (#14592080)
What if you don't have any USD? You can also instead by 10 futures contracts and make 0.50 GBP.

Additionally futures aren't just for "betting" they are also for offloading risk. For example a company might expect an sale in another currency and might want to "convert" that earlier to offload the risk of making another purchase in a different currency.

Re:Bancor Is Flawed by kcanini on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @12:02AM (#14592117)
I guess I'm assuming you can always borrow USD if you want to make this type of trade on the spot market without actually owning USD in the first place, or if you want leverage.
Re:Bancor Is Flawed by bradleyjg on Monday June 19, 2017 @11:59PM (#14592104)
Suppose I have 1MM USD payment expected in six months and owe my vendor 1.3MM CAD the same day. If I have them, I could take other dollars and convert them to CAD at today's spot. I could wait six months and convert then. Either way I'm taking on currency risk. I can choose instead to offload that currency risk to a counterparty for a small fee. It's classic hedging.
Re:Bancor Is Flawed by kcanini on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @12:06AM (#14592131)
> I could take other dollars and convert them to CAD at today's spot. I could wait six months and convert then. Either way I'm taking on currency risk.

I see how the second case (waiting six months to convert USD to CAD) involves currency risk. But I don't understand how the first case involves currency risk. If I converted some USD into 1.3MM CAD today, and then held it for six months before paying my vendor, what currency risk did I incur that is eliminated by the futures contract?

Re:Bancor Is Flawed by bboreham on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @03:00AM (#14592688)
If you exchange now, you risk the price could get better over six months and you missed out.

An FX future has the same currency risk profile as exchanging now. What is different is you trade on margin, and you have interest rate risk in a different currency.

People who actually want to fix an FX rate in the future would use a 'forward', simply a contract to exchange at a later date. Again no change in FX risk.

The true hedge is an FX option, where you can lock in a price (for a fee) yet still back out if you want to.

Re:Bancor Is Flawed by lordnacho on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @05:50AM (#14593259)
The futures market for anything (including FX) is a convenient way to get risk without doing daily settlements.

You know what the cost of carry is up to the futures expiry date, so you use that (non arbitrage) to set the adjustment for the futures price.

So then when you trade the future, you're not in need of settling some item (currency, bonds, cows) against some payment each day.

Currencies are indeed available each day, and are easily settled each day, but there's a number of reasons why you might want the future:

- If you settle each day, your account PnL depends on interest payments. With futures, it's just the difference between the prices traded. So easier to account for.

- Futures tend to be cheap to trade. Depends on your agreements. You have to pay interest on one side and receive it on the other side if you settle currency. And guess what, your prime broker gives you a crap rate on both!

Re:Bancor Is Flawed by crypt1d on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @03:14AM (#14592727)
Lykke comes to my mind with their LKK1Y coin:

https://www.lykke.com/city/blog/what_is_lykke_forward

https://www.lykke.com/

The original, LKK coin, is essentially a representation of the company's shares. LKK1Y is a derivative which you can stake and receive the same amount of LKK in 1 year time.

Do note that as of now, Lykke wallet is unavailable in the US as they are still working out the regulations.

Re:Bancor Is Flawed by technotony on Monday June 19, 2017 @10:38PM (#14591829)
You can short on Polinex and Bitfinex...
Re:Bancor Is Flawed by jnordwick on Monday June 19, 2017 @11:02PM (#14591922)
How? What are the carry costs?

This would essentially be a bitcoin loan - I've never heard of such a thing, but i don't follow them very much (I do work in finance and trading though).

Literally, what is the bitcoin interest rate?

Is there even enough volume ooh these lower tier exchanges to support shorting the spot on them?

EDIT: i didn't find the interest rates but i did see that Bitfinex offers the ETH-BTC cross which is good so somebody can bet the relative value. I still think a futures market weighs be really useful for hedging purposes and reduced shorting fees and slippage.

Re:Bancor Is Flawed by technotony on Monday June 19, 2017 @11:16PM (#14591953)
Yeah, you can lend out your bitcoin. for a daily interest rate and set the loan length to between 2 and 60 days. Lenders principle is in theory protected by a margin account. Interest rate is between 0.1% and up per day, which probably reflects the risk. I believe market depth is about 4,000 btc, so enough for an amateaur to play but not a hedge fund.
Re:Bancor Is Flawed by jnordwick on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @03:53AM (#14592833)
So that means you are essentially having to go to the market at least every 2 months and pay the spread and tx costs to roll your position?

And the way they describe how they automatically choose the loan with the lowest rate they could pick one where you need to return BTC in 2 days even. That sounds horrible.

Re:Bancor Is Flawed by joosters on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @04:39AM (#14592980)
Yes, even 'random' spikes and dips in obscure exchanges can force-close positions on some other exchanges.

'We use the average price of 5 difference exchanges to calculate the current BTC price' - then one of those random exchanges goes haywire and BTC trades near 0 on them for a few seconds. Ooops, the average BTC price just dropped 20% so we had to close your position due to lack of margin. Sorry! (This has happened several times in the past few months, for instance...)

Re:Bancor Is Flawed by bluesteel44 on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @02:22AM (#14592566)
Bitmex.com has a market determined borrow rate, in times of market rallies it gets as high as +1% per day and can be as low as -1% when panic hits. They relay it without any markup, so there's only the bitmex credit risk left.
Re:Bancor Is Flawed by jnordwick on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @03:56AM (#14592848)
When you say "per day" you mean annualized right? You don't really mean i borrow 1 BTC today and pay you back 1.01 BTC tomorrow, right?
Re:Bancor Is Flawed by Uw7yTcf36gTc on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:58AM (#14595634)
not annualized. literally, per day. its crazy, i know.
Re:Bancor Is Flawed by Animats on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @12:22AM (#14592180)
Where in the cryptocurrency world would you find a counterparty with enough financial strength to pay up when they lose?
Re:Bancor Is Flawed by runeks on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @01:13AM (#14592351)
This can be solved through requiring collateral, and margin calls, which leads us to the real problem: cryptocurrencies are so volatile that too much collateral would be needed, and even then there'd be a rather large risk of default in case the market moves by too much.
Re:Bancor Is Flawed by jnordwick on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @03:59AM (#14592858)
In future markets every day your position is marked and your balance updated with your profit or loss.

You have margin requirement and when you no longer have enough in your margin account your position is liquidated so you don't wind up losing more money than you had put in.

Re:Bancor Is Flawed by verroq on Monday June 19, 2017 @11:14PM (#14591947)
You can on bitmex.