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Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by jdietrich on Thursday June 15, 2017 @12:42AM (#14557967)
About 500 people were directly endangered by this incident. The Safety Check alert seems to extend well beyond Greater London, so at least 9 million people. That gives us an approximate false positive rate of 99.995%.

Is that reasonable or proportionate? Does it actually provide useful information? Is it likely to quell unfounded fears and provide genuine reassurance?

As tragic as this incident was, it affected a single building. Safety Check might be a useful feature in some very specific circumstances, but it's abundantly clear that Facebook is using it inappropriately. People hundreds of miles from the incident are having their profiles show "not marked as safe".

The article makes a quite reasonable point - that Safety Check strongly implies that "not safe" is the default, contrary to long-established social norms. Unless used very carefully, this feature could cause completely unnecessary fear; it is easy to envision a scenario where Safety Check could prompt a dangerous mass panic.

If this is a genuine public safety feature, if Facebook really are using Safety Check out of concern for their users welfare, then they should fully accept the concomitant responsibility. They should expend real resources to liaise with the relevant agencies and ensure that Safety Check is deployed only when appropriate, that it is accurately targeted and that it helps rather than hinders relief efforts.

If Facebook wish to rely on their usual excuses of "move fast and break stuff" and "it's not our fault, it's the algorithm", then we should see Safety Check in those terms - as a careless and cynical effort to boost engagement metrics.

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by seanp2k2 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @01:01AM (#14558019)
"If this is a genuine public safety feature, if Facebook really are using Safety Check out of concern for their users welfare, then they should fully accept the concomitant responsibility. They should expend real resources to liaise with the relevant agencies and ensure that Safety Check is deployed only when appropriate, that it is accurately targeted and that it helps rather than hinders relief efforts. If Facebook wish to rely on their usual excuses of "move fast and break stuff" and "it's not our fault, it's the algorithm", then we should see Safety Check in those terms - as a careless and cynical effort to boost engagement metrics. "

100% agree. I think it's a well-intentioned effort gone wrong because the tuning is so off. I know a few engineers at Facebook who work on algorithms + related tooling, I'll make sure they see this.

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by afro88 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @01:56AM (#14558203)
Simple solution: have a "ask X if they're safe" button that friends/family can press. If someone presses it, that person gets a push to mark themselves safe. They don't get a push otherwise.
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by eatsfoobars on Thursday June 15, 2017 @03:18AM (#14558507)
Actually, this button already exists [1].

[1]: https://www.facebook.com/help/516656825135759

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by donkeyd on Thursday June 15, 2017 @03:19AM (#14558509)
That will have the flip side of family members getting extra worried if not marked safe, because Facebook wasn't checked for example.
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by wapz on Thursday June 15, 2017 @04:59AM (#14558831)
I'm guessing most family members are most likely not going to ask the question on facebook instead of just call their loved ones or send a text or email. My personal line of thinking is (maybe check facebook if they're super active to see if they said they're ok). Send a text or email if I'm a little worried. Call if I'm very worried. After a text or call I wouldn't go back and push the ask button on FB.
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by Already__Taken on Thursday June 15, 2017 @04:22AM (#14558712)
You always had that though. And you can't automatically answer it for users from device activity because that would violate someone's privacy.
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by jakeogh on Thursday June 15, 2017 @01:20AM (#14558079)
Excellent. I appreciate that. From my perspective well-intentioned is charitable for a social engineering platform. I have no doubt that is an accurate description for the vast majority of people involved, including the engineers you know, but this is almost a law of physics, it's too valuable to not be worth using; it's much more useful than old-school media: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ajes.2017.76.issu...
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by dx034 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @02:31AM (#14558341)
> About 500 people were directly endangered by this incident. The Safety Check alert seems to extend well beyond Greater London, so at least 9 million people. That gives us an approximate false positive rate of 99.995%.

I live in London but have friends around the world that haven't visited me yet and don't know where I live. After an event like yesterday I get a lot of messages asking if I'm ok, so using the safety check can help even though there was no remote risk that I could've been affected.

I think it's reasonable that the safety check area is that large, it helps for friends/family who don't know exactly where you are.

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by alistairSH on Thursday June 15, 2017 @01:18PM (#14562343)
As a counter to that, I have friends in London and I didn't think to check in on them. Somebody would have called/texted/emailed if those friends were in trouble. As said above "no news is good news".
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by mikeash on Thursday June 15, 2017 @09:12AM (#14560025)
I'm puzzled by this idea that social norms were "safe by default" until social media came along. It's certainly not my experience. When some high-profile event happens in the area, people check in and worry if they don't hear from you. It's been like this since long before Facebook was a thing.

This looks like yet another case of nerds assuming the entire world thinks and acts like we do. Yes, worrying about someone just because they live in the same major city as a disaster that affects a couple hundred people is irrational. Yes, your adds of being killed by a bus while crossing the street are far greater. Yes, just about any event which makes the news is unlikely by definition. No, none of this actually influences how normal people think and act.

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by willvarfar on Thursday June 15, 2017 @09:20AM (#14560089)
It Britain, the default is "no news is good news", which is a proverb meaning "without information to the contrary you can assume that all is well".
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by mikeash on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:16AM (#14560580)
I hear that phrase a lot, but is that how it actually works when things like this happen, or is it just what people say?
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by Crespyl on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:06AM (#14561060)
I think when things like this happen, it usually falls under the category of "bad news is bad news" and people will want to reach out to friends/loved ones who may have been affected.

If my friend is going overseas for a month (and there aren't any terror attacks or plane crashes or whatever), I will probably assume they're doing just fine, haven't been mugged or gotten lost in the woods or anything unless I specifically hear otherwise.

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by mikeash on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:29AM (#14561292)
Well put. "No news is good news" is predicated on no news. If nothing noteworthy happens then most people are fine with assuming you're doing fine until and unless they hear otherwise. But if some disaster (even a localized one) happens in the area where they know you are, that doesn't apply anymore.
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by willvarfar on Thursday June 15, 2017 @12:53PM (#14562092)
That interpretation is actually at odds with my experience and how others have described it to me. I recall my mum describing the fear of receiving a telegram during the war. People would assure themselves nothing had happened to loved ones fighting because they had received no news. And when I myself was in London I think it was 7 7 bombings my family again assumed I wasn't caught up in it because they received no visit from the police. I didn't call until a long time after, despite evacuating the tube one stop from one of the bombs or something. Mind is fuzzy. Anyway, I think that is how the stiff upper lip stoic Brits are. Or were. Perhaps the modern generation are good for nothing self absorbed hugging kinds? Too much Anerican influence perhaps ;)
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by IanCal on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:30AM (#14561302)
While it'll obviously depend on the people, this is what my parents basically said to me when I spoke to them a bit after the bombing in Manchester.

I probably wasn't involved, and they'd have heard if I was.

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by mmirate on Thursday June 15, 2017 @02:45PM (#14563202)
> No, none of this actually influences how normal people think and act.

Well that's bloody stupid and innumerate of them. Surely, enabling such vices can't be good in the long-term.

... and how, again, are these people able to acquire positions of power such that we still have to care-about/interact-with them?

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by mikeash on Thursday June 15, 2017 @03:03PM (#14563392)
Turns out that having a solid logical understanding of the risks of accidental death is more or less uncorrelated with having the sort of people skills which allow a person to attain positions of power.
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by mmirate on Thursday June 15, 2017 @03:54PM (#14563839)
But this points to not a specific misunderstanding of accidental death, but to a general inability to comprehend/apply statistics, which includes things such as cost/benefit analyses.
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by mikeash on Thursday June 15, 2017 @05:47PM (#14564673)
It's fascinating to see nerds weird out over people's inability to comprehend basic probability and statistics (which the human brain is innately bad at) while displaying a complete inability to understand other people (which the human brain is innately great at). And yes, I do it too sometimes.

Stop arguing about why the average person, or even the average powerful person, ought to have an excellent understanding of these things, and start exploring why they don't. You'll come out of it more informed.

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by btown on Thursday June 15, 2017 @12:53AM (#14557996)
I have to disagree. "Not safe" became the default as soon as the concept of social media hit; if there's the slightest chance you may have been affected by an incident, anyone who would check your social postings to see if there was any "word from you" would assume the worst in the absence of such a posting. The human mind is evolved for both empathy and "what-if" scenarios, but not for probability; it will snap to "what if my loved one was in that apartment because they were in the country" rather than "it is highly improbable." Given that, Safety Check actually dampens those emotions on a societal scale, by making it easier and more natural for each potentially-endangered poster to assuage the fears of people in their circles.
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by jdietrich on Thursday June 15, 2017 @01:19AM (#14558076)
Safety Check wasn't a carefully planned and considered effort by Facebook, it was a hackathon project that went into production. There are many other ways that Facebook could have responded to that issue. Given the size, influence and profitability of Facebook, Safety Check seems extraordinarily half-assed.

I'm not in any way convinced that Safety Check does actually dampen fear. It provides information of very poor quality ("not marked as safe" or "safe") in a very poorly targeted way, without any kind of meaningful context. That kind of uncertainty is rarely reassuring.

If Facebook took the issue seriously, they could easily address many of these shortcomings. They could provide this kind of information in a relevant and contextual way, counteracting the cognitive biases that lead us to worry. They could deeply examine how social media can stoke fears and engineer reassurance into the fabric of their network, rather than bolting on a crude alert system that was hacked together in a weekend. I doubt that they will, because fear and misinformation is clearly very profitable for them in all sorts of ways.

I'm reminded of the AMBER Alert system - a well-meaning but highly ineffectual response that has greatly contributed to the climate of fear.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0887403407302332 http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0734016808316778

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by tzakrajs on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:01AM (#14561014)
It's almost like the person finder Google made, except it pushes itself on you in an attempt to drive engagement.
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by jfoutz on Thursday June 15, 2017 @01:19AM (#14558073)
That's not an unreasonable stance. I lean the other way. I think, that there is an opportunity, if not a requirement, for fine grained tuning. FB knows a lot about it's users, and can do a better job of predicting who needs the i'm safe button.

Clearly there's a geographic component. Someone in the area, around the time, or in the area regularly. There's probably a fancy combination of, how bad the event was, how widely the event was reported, how close you are to friends, are you traveling to the area, and a bunch of other factors.

Clearly they can handle it dynamically. If you get the "are you ok?" messages, they can add you to likely events, and offer the i'm safe. They can make it easy to add yourself to a disaster event.

There are a lot of people in London. They have the social graph, coupled with location and messaging data. They can do a better job at targeting.

Again, i respect your opinion, but your needs, and my needs are different. I think they can do a better job at meeting both of our needs.

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by matt4077 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @01:55AM (#14558199)
Part of the problem is that peoples' worries depend not on what Facebook knows, but what those people know:

I, for example, know several people in London, but have no idea where in London exactly they life. Now I didn't actually worry because that just didn't make sense considering the numbers involved, but it seems like a very understandable, human mistake to still get alarmed.

That could mean displaying people safe without their input, based on location data. But that wouldn't have an impact on the problems the author is concerned about.

I think it's essentially a good feature, but this incident may just not have been a good fit.

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by aaron-lebo on Thursday June 15, 2017 @02:24AM (#14558311)
The odds of any given event impacting someone you know is so small as to be incomprehensible. Do you get worried because you heard there was a shooting in a city and it might have included your friends? You probably don't, and before Facebook you wouldn't have given it a second thought. Your friends are more likely to get hit by a car or have a heart attack and you and Facebook would never know and that's ok. Those are the odds and we don't always have to be connected.

Yeah, it's a human mistake, but technology should be moving people away from animalistic fears and desires, not pushing them towards it. The easier thing to do would be to realize those odds and realize you can't control these things instead of relying on a social network as a crutch.

That may be cynical, but Facebook isn't doing this because they care about you, they're doing it because it's yet another way to get people attached so Facebook can make advertising dollars. That's cynical.

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by tluyben2 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @03:10AM (#14558481)
My grandfather has always (my mother has identical stories from when she was young) been deadly afraid when, on tv or newspaper, a city or even country was named and I was there. Like when I was in Seattle and in the news there was some big fire somewhere in the US, he would panic and start calling my mother.
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by Sephiroth87 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @05:53AM (#14559034)
My partner still get worried calls from her parents any time there ANY accident going on in the UK, and we live in London, so you might be underestimating the impulse of people worrying about their loved ones...
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by jamesrcole on Thursday June 15, 2017 @06:50AM (#14559232)
> technology should be moving people away from animalistic fears and desires, not pushing them towards it.

Do you have a suggestion for how that could be practically done?

> The easier thing to do would be to realize those odds and realize you can't control these things instead of relying on a social network as a crutch.

Easier? What the easy way you're suggesting for changing these attitudes and beliefs among the general population?

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by wutbrodo on Thursday June 15, 2017 @02:20AM (#14558291)
> I have to disagree. "Not safe" became the default as soon as the concept of social media hit;

FWIW, this wasn't the case in my (very large) extended family my entire childhood. Depending on how widespread coverage of the event was, a family member get calls or texts asking if I was okay whenever something dangerous happened

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by ryandrake on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:05AM (#14560477)
Not for everyone. Maybe "not safe" became the default for some social media users. If so, I feel sorry for you guys. Always needing to check in to assure your friends and family you're not dead seems like a chore with little upside. I can't imagine that that's actually true.

For those of us who do not use social media [yep, looks like I have to be "that guy" today], it's in no way the default. I can tell you that if people I know don't hear from me over social media, they are not going to bat an eye, because it is normal not to hear from me over social media.

It's an interesting question though: Does frequent use of something like Facebook lead to an expectation of future frequent use of it from your peers? I'm not sure if that's true. Try it as an experiment. Don't log into social media for 3 months. See how many "friends" actually try to contact you through some other means to check if you're OK. My guess is that fewer than you think will. I know when I jumped ship on social media, I just stopped logging in without telling anyone, and exactly zero people panicked. They just started E-mailing me when they had something to say.

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by an_account on Thursday June 15, 2017 @02:14AM (#14558270)
You could also just post on Facebook, "I'm okay, I survived [the event]" if you would find value in telling all your friends. Why does Facebook need to prompt?
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by ClassyJacket on Thursday June 15, 2017 @04:22AM (#14558714)
Unfortunately, you can't trust Facebook to actually show your posts to other people. Their "algorithm" - a cancerous wart that has infected Instagram too now - means that they show you what they want to show you, not necessarily what your friends post.
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by jimmies on Thursday June 15, 2017 @08:00AM (#14559531)
If your friends don't care to check on you personally, why do you think that they care about your post (that you say you're fine) that doesn't get shown to you on facebook?
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by corobo on Thursday June 15, 2017 @03:06AM (#14558461)
I thought it was well known and well complained about that when you post something not everyone sees it. The way my timeline seems to be right now if someone posted they're safe right this moment I wouldn't see it until tomorrow night.
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by jnty on Thursday June 15, 2017 @07:48AM (#14559439)
If you were concerned about someone's wellbeing surely you'd check their page directly?
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by corobo on Thursday June 15, 2017 @07:55AM (#14559495)
Fair point
Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by aaron-lebo on Thursday June 15, 2017 @03:07AM (#14558470)
Facebook can't make money off that or make people feel like it's necessary to their lives. Similarly, Facebook couldn't take a cut out of people recovering from these events unless they integrated it into their platform.

This is especially problematic when you consider Facebook’s business model benefits from increased engagement with its platform. Add to that, it also recently stepped into the personal fundraising space. And today, as chance would have it, Facebook announced that Safety Check will be integrating these personal fundraisers (starting in the US).

An FAQ for Facebook’s Fundraisers notes that the company levies a fee for personal donations of 6.9% + $.30, while fees for nonprofit donations range from 5% to 5.75%.

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by Nursie on Thursday June 15, 2017 @03:59AM (#14558645)
Probably way more than 9 million. I live in a small city 60 miles from London, and facebook asked me to "mark safe" yesterday because of the fire.

It's nuts.

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by captainmuon on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:47AM (#14561471)
You might have friends on Facebook who are not locals. When a chemical plant blew up spectacularly in Tianjin, China, I was more than an hour away in Beijing. I still got a lot of worried inquiries (from those who heard about it anyway). The same when there was a terrorist attack in Berlin. I was at the other side of the city. There was no Safety Check, but I posted about it, because events like these affect people emotionally.

The fire in London was not a catastrophe of the scale of a tsunami or a major terrorist attack, but the pictures were frightening and impressive, and it is still a huge tragedy. So I can imagine many residents of London got worried messages from friends and family abroad.

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by alistairSH on Thursday June 15, 2017 @01:21PM (#14562368)
Why would people worry that you, in Beijing, was at risk from an explosion in Tianjin (100km distant)?

If a bomb goes off in Baltimore, I don't call all my DC friends.

Re:Facebook’s Safety Check is a stress-inducing flip of soci... by captainmuon on Sunday June 18, 2017 @09:14AM (#14580500)
Because people have no sense of scale in foreign countries, that is my point. Especially if you are viewing a map of all China trying to find Beijing, 100km is not much :-).

On 9/11 I was a kid living in Germany, but had relatives in California. My teachers were incredibly concerned and treated my like I was wrapped in cotton, or as if I had lost somebody personally. It's a weird thing.