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Re:Apple Is Trying to Make iMessages More Private by tptacek on Sunday June 11, 2017 @12:02PM (#14532445)
iMessage is fine. Don't use it deliberately.

For secure, private messages, your sane current options are Signal, WhatsApp, and Wire. Signal is the best option, but you're going to make some UX sacrifices for security. WhatsApp and Wire are extremely comparable. If you worry about implementation or operational security flaws, WhatsApp has the Facebook security team behind it, and a long-term relationship with OWS; no cryptographically secure messenger is better staffed. If you're worried about Facebook seeing your metadata, which is a sane worry, Wire is approximately as slick and usable as WhatsApp with mostly the same underpinnings.

Regardless of the underlying cryptography, in the absence of a well-reviewed published crypto messaging protocol, iMessage is basically just an optimization over SMS/MMS. It's great for that, but it shouldn't be anyone's primary messenger.

Re:Apple Is Trying to Make iMessages More Private by JumpCrisscross on Sunday June 11, 2017 @12:04PM (#14532459)
Facebook mines WhatsApp metadata [1]. I'm not sure I'd elevate WhatsApp over iMessage, despite my respect for the OWS team. Signal is definitely the most secure.

[1] http://bgr.com/2017/05/18/facebook-whatsapp-privacy-fine/

Re:Apple Is Trying to Make iMessages More Private by CiPHPerCoder on Sunday June 11, 2017 @12:17PM (#14532523)
> Facebook mines WhatsApp metadata [1].

Thomas addressed this:

If you're worried about Facebook seeing your metadata, which is a sane worry, Wire is approximately as slick and usable as WhatsApp with mostly the same underpinnings.

> I'm not sure I'd elevate WhatsApp over iMessage

I would! Consider the following: https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2016/03/21/attack-o...

That sort of attack is not possible against WhatsApp.

Re:Apple Is Trying to Make iMessages More Private by DonaldPShimoda on Sunday June 11, 2017 @12:56PM (#14532696)
From your article:

> as implemented in versions of iOS prior to 9.3 and Mac OS X prior to 10.11.4

This fall, these will both be two major versions behind the current state of the software. Considering how openly pro-privacy/pro-security Apple has been over the past couple years, I'd expect they've fixed these issues and more by now.

I'm not making an argument that Apple is infallible; I acknowledge that it's possible there are still security flaws in iMessage. But I think that Apple is the only one of the really big tech companies who seem to be taking a privacy stand that the users can get behind, which is something to applaud.

Re:Apple Is Trying to Make iMessages More Private by petre on Sunday June 11, 2017 @03:33PM (#14533381)
At least Wire doesn't refuse to start and works fine even if I refuse to allow it to read my contact list and the software was open sourced:

https://github.com/wireapp

Signal doesn't work without a phone number and it doesn't have a web app, otherwise it's great if you only use it on the phone.

Re:Apple Is Trying to Make iMessages More Private by CiPHPerCoder on Sunday June 11, 2017 @03:53PM (#14533465)
Given that Signal was designed specifically for mobile users not desktop users, that's not a problem for its target audience.

Wire looks promising for desktop users.

Re:Apple Is Trying to Make iMessages More Private by cageface on Sunday June 11, 2017 @09:07PM (#14534680)
Signal does have a web app. I use it every day.
Re:Apple Is Trying to Make iMessages More Private by petre on Sunday June 11, 2017 @11:26PM (#14535062)
Signal Desktop is hardly a web app in the sense that you open a website and you're done. You need to use Chrome and you need your phone. It's probably more secure yet rather inconvenient.
Re:Apple Is Trying to Make iMessages More Private by whoami_nr on Sunday June 11, 2017 @12:15PM (#14532514)
AFAIK, Moxie(OWS Founder) was responsible for the integration of the Signal protocol into WhatsApp. So, if there are any design/implementation flaws in the underlying protocol, wouldn't they also be in Whatsapp too ? Again, this might not be the case and everything might be properly vetted but this just slightly increases the chance of an error propagating and be in both the messengers.
Re:Apple Is Trying to Make iMessages More Private by tbrock on Monday June 12, 2017 @01:04AM (#14535272)
Trust WhatsApp? You must be joking. We can't see the source and it's owned by an advertising company.

I'd trust iMessage over WhatsApp any day of the week. The parent company doesn't make money by potentially knowing who I am and what I say.

Re:Apple Is Trying to Make iMessages More Private by tptacek on Monday June 12, 2017 @03:19AM (#14535611)
It would be nice if we could reason about security and privacy properties of software simply by considering which company or organization provided it, but that is not how software security --- particularly cryptographic software security --- works in the real world.
Re:Apple Is Trying to Make iMessages More Private by Propen on Sunday June 11, 2017 @04:32PM (#14533627)
If the msg content is encrypted what metadata should I "worry about" when using WhatsApp IF I am okay with not being anonymous (eg. for everyday use with friends). What can FB tell me based on JUST WhatsApp? (let's say they haven't connected my identities with FB yet)
Re:Apple Is Trying to Make iMessages More Private by tptacek on Sunday June 11, 2017 @06:20PM (#14534112)
Here's another way to think about it: privacy and security are related but not the same thing. If you care more about PRIVACY, use Signal or Wire. If you care more about SECURITY, use Signal or WhatsApp. I care more about security, because privacy controls don't much matter if there's an exploitable vulnerability anywhere in the messaging stack. But you could reasonably argue that privacy is an everyday concern and security is a black-swan concern --- that is, when we're comparing Double Ratchet protocol messengers like Wire, Signal, and WhatsApp.
Re:Apple Is Trying to Make iMessages More Private by michalu on Sunday June 11, 2017 @12:07PM (#14532476)
What about Telegram? Is there a reason you haven't listed it? I find it better that WhatsApp.
Re:Apple Is Trying to Make iMessages More Private by transitorykris on Sunday June 11, 2017 @12:13PM (#14532504)
Telegram can be confusing for users. Encryption needs to be turned on, and isn't available in group chats.

https://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2017/papers/84.pdf Is super interesting when thinking about secure messaging from the perspective of ordinary folk.

Re:Apple Is Trying to Make iMessages More Private by CiPHPerCoder on Sunday June 11, 2017 @12:20PM (#14532532)
Re:Apple Is Trying to Make iMessages More Private by zanny on Sunday June 11, 2017 @12:12PM (#14532494)
Since they use their own in house crypto, most people don't consider it trustworthy:

https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/49782/is-telegr...