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Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by amalcon on Saturday June 10, 2017 @03:13PM (#14528723)
Years ago, I spoke with an attorney with a CS background. He had once worked on a case like this. Sharp guy. He didn't tell me the parties involved, and I didn't ask, though I assume he wouldn't speak openly about it while it was ongoing. I therefore don't know how it turned out. It was many years ago, so I might be remembering wrong. I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice (neither mine nor his).

Basically, there are two approaches the plaintiff might take here. The simplest is to cite the doctrine of equivalents[1]. This is basically the notion that if you do the same thing in the same way for the same purpose, then it's the same process, even though you are using digital instructions instead of logic gates. The legal theory here is pretty well settled. The problem is that you'd need to justify that digital instructions are obviously equivalent to logic gates, and a skilled professional would have equated them at the time of the patent's filing.

The other approach is to argue that an emulator actually is a processor, and therefore fits the literal claims of the patent. The explanation for this is pretty well-established: it's literally the Church-Turing Thesis[2]. However, the viability of this argument depends on the language of the patent claims. Also, it's hard enough to explain the C-T Thesis to CS students. My undergrad had an entire 1-credit-equivalent course that basically just covered this and the decidability problem. Explaining it to a judge, who (while likely highly intelligent) probably has no CS background, over the course of litigation is likely to be really hard.

Now, Intel certainly has enough resources to do both of these things (and they may also have precedent to cite, that didn't exist back then or that wasn't relevant to that case). Don't take this as an opinion on any possible result, it's just information such as I remember it.

[1]- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_equivalents [2]- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church%E2%80%93Turing_thesis

Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by yuhong on Saturday June 10, 2017 @03:23PM (#14528763)
One patent is https://patents.google.com/patent/US6721866B2 which is for LDDQU and probably would not matter for an emulator. I wonder about https://patents.google.com/patent/US7155601B2/en which is a patent on PSHUFLW/PSHUFHW. I wonder if a CPU instruction in which the only difference is that it operates on different registers is patentable.
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by ouid on Saturday June 10, 2017 @03:24PM (#14528770)
if it's Church Turing you're arguing, then Intel surely doesn't hold the patent on the whole equivalence class...
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by amalcon on Saturday June 10, 2017 @03:28PM (#14528789)
The argument is that anything with that equivalence is a processor, which means an emulator is a processor, which means that any patent thats mentions the word "processor" (or equivalent) covers the emulator if it would cover the emulated device. The argument is not that the patent covers all processors.
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by _delirium on Saturday June 10, 2017 @08:34PM (#14529996)
Wouldn't that make it essentially a mathematical patent, which is not allowed? Or at best a software patent, which is a gray area? Patenting an equivalence class of logical operations, without specificity about their implementation, is on a lot shakier footing than patenting a hardware invention, at least in U.S. patent law. It does lead to wider potential applicability, but at the risk of weaker foundations.
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by ouid on Saturday June 10, 2017 @04:39PM (#14529102)
that's not the church turing thesis then.
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by kpil on Sunday June 11, 2017 @05:24AM (#14531323)
I guess you could also try to use the Church-Turing teorem in a claim that no instruction level patent are enforceable, since they are all equivalent...

But this is logic bordering to philosophy, which isn't exactly what the courts love to argue about. They look at intents and damages.

My guess is that a simple 'I sell X using my patents, they also sell X but are not paying" is vastly more likely to succeed. "But, but, Church-Turing" will just piss them off.

Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by amalcon on Saturday June 10, 2017 @08:21PM (#14529950)
You're right that it expands upon the C-T thesis a bit, so my use of the word "literally" was incorrect. It does depend on the C-T thesis though, because it relies on a definition of "processor" that references it. You'd still need to explain it to a judge.
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by ouid on Saturday June 10, 2017 @09:15PM (#14530119)
What do you mean when you say "expands upon"? Either all computers are equivalent or you aren't invoking C-T.
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by ajarmst on Saturday June 10, 2017 @09:21PM (#14530135)
Heh. They should go with the Strong CT Thesis and end up proving that every patent on a computer is a patent on the universe. As a follow up, they could petition the Supreme Court to grant personhood to any process that can pass the Turing Test. If money is speech in the US...
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by Asooka on Sunday June 11, 2017 @04:25AM (#14531217)
What if it doesn't emulate x86 on the fly, but reassembles the binary for the target architecture? This obviously won't work in many cases, but should be fine for run-of-the-mill business software, which is what Microsoft is mostly targeting.
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by rkeene2 on Sunday June 11, 2017 @10:49PM (#14534953)
This is called static recompilation or static binary translation. It is hard.
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by kakarot on Saturday June 10, 2017 @04:19PM (#14529008)
One has to wonder why this approach hasn't been successful in litigation against game console emulator developers.
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by wtallis on Saturday June 10, 2017 @07:56PM (#14529878)
How many suits against console emulators have gone to trial? I would think nobody who makes or sells console hardware actually wants to risk such a case going to trial, because the best case is that they win and can't recover any meaningful damages, but the worst case outcome is that they establish precedent that the emulator is legal.
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by kakarot on Saturday June 10, 2017 @08:51PM (#14530055)
Well, that's exactly it. It has gone to trial before and emulator devs win every time. The precedent has already been set. That's what spawned my comment, because I don't understand the differences between x86 emulation and, say, Cell processor emulation, from a legal standpoint.
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by emodendroket on Sunday June 11, 2017 @08:55AM (#14531790)
Bleem did, at least.
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by throwaway91111 on Saturday June 10, 2017 @05:22PM (#14529260)
Possibly because emulators didn't provide a source of potential licensing revenue—they're all free.
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by kakarot on Saturday June 10, 2017 @06:53PM (#14529664)
Some devs are making quite a bit on their Patreons right now through donations.

https://www.patreon.com/cemu

https://www.patreon.com/Nekotekina

2 of the more well-known dev teams.

Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by drakenot on Saturday June 10, 2017 @08:03PM (#14529901)
Interesting. I wonder why there is such a disparity between CEMU (building a Wii U emulator) getting $28k/mo and Nekotekina getting $1.2k/mo (building a PS3 emulator).
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by kakarot on Saturday June 10, 2017 @08:44PM (#14530025)
Easy. Breath of the Wild. I bought the game so I could emulate it on my PC and it runs almost flawlessly. Between the launch of the game and now, their monthly donations have just been going up and up and up. Just a few months after release, it runs at a higher (more consistent, anyway, because it's still capped at 30) FPS and resolution than either the Wii U or Switch could provide. The PC BotW experience is actually already the definitive experience.

It will probably stay decently high for a while too while they hammer out compatibility for other Wii U games.

See, it's still worthwhile for me to pick up an old PS4 and amass a decent library while also still being able to buy new titles, but the Wii U was an absolute dud and there is 0% incentive to buy one now that it's already been axed. Emulation will be the only saving grace for its stellar exclusive titles. And since the Switch has its own share of problems handling BotW, it's really a no-brainer to invest a little in CEMU's future. The CEMU devs are absolute demons, on par with Dolphin's team.

As for RPCS3, the PS3 has a big enough library and is cheap enough to make it worth just buying one until the devs can catch up. AFAIK there isn't a single fully working commercial game on it yet.

Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by fuuduidio on Saturday June 10, 2017 @08:53PM (#14530064)
While botw plays in cemu, certain game elements was broken last I tried, like the camera, and photo book
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by kakarot on Saturday June 10, 2017 @08:59PM (#14530087)
If you copy the pictbook folder from your extracted game files into the appropriate memory card folder and make it read-only, when you snap pictures of objects it will register the default image for the item.

The only thing really broken, besides little graphical things and certain ambient shaders, is that you can't zoom in on the photographs of the memories. Not really an issue when you can just put your face closer to the TV. Oh, and yeah you can't take custom photographs yet. And, of course, FMV only works when you download a third-party plugin because x264 decoding isn't high on the CEMU dev's list right now.

But in general it runs almost flawlessly, as far as being able to complete the game is concerned. Some people report predictable crashes after encountering Ganon or any of the Blight creatures, but I have not had this problem. Just occasional crashes here and there.

Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by fuuduidio on Saturday June 10, 2017 @08:51PM (#14530057)
Because you can play Breath of the wild in CEMU :-)
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by rasz on Sunday June 11, 2017 @01:36AM (#14530794)
Not really. Bleem and VGS were a big business, Steve Jobs himself advertised VGS during Macworld 1999

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUfu-xOGr1U&t=9m0s

Sony sued the shit out of them and lost, and then bought VGS from Connectix. Sony bankrupted Bleem withe legal cost and later hired Bleem programmers :/

Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by thristian on Saturday June 10, 2017 @08:20PM (#14529947)
Most of the classic consoles didn't have patents covering their architecture. For example, the NES had a patent covering the security chip on every game cartridge, but since the chip was a purely hardware thing that didn't affect the operation of the game software, NES emulators happily ignore the whole thing.
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by kakarot on Saturday June 10, 2017 @08:52PM (#14530062)
I was really thinking more about the modern, active emulation scene. See my other comments to your sister posts.
Re:Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, says x86 emulatio... by it__guy on Sunday June 11, 2017 @02:16AM (#14530907)
> Explaining it to a judge, who (while likely highly intelligent) probably has no CS background, over the course of litigation is likely to be really hard.

Unless the case is presided by Judge Alsup, who learnt to write Java programs during Oracle v. Google.