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Re:Options vs. Cash by icedchai on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @10:17AM (#14506607)
Except, all things usually aren't equal. Most people explain dilution like this: you're getting a smaller piece of a bigger pie.
Re:Options vs. Cash by Retric on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @11:02AM (#14506995)
It's zero net gain at the point of dilution. Owning 10% of 10 million or 1% of 100 million is the same money you simply have even less control.

Unfortunately, rational people may have very different risk tolerances. Founders often see it as I have a company and X money to work with. The next round means I have a company and X + Y money to work with. In that context having a 90% chance of 10 million is often better than a 80% chance of 20 million even if the expected value drops the difference between 0 and 10 million is vastly larger than 10 million vs 20 million. But, smaller stakeholders may not agree with this thinking.

Re:Options vs. Cash by user5994461 on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @02:22PM (#14508669)
Yet you just lost 90% of your money. It's shocking that you can now see the trick being performed on employees.

What a typical employee thought:

- I have 1% of a 10M dollar company. We'll do well and in 2 years I will have 1% of a 100M dollar company.

What will happen in the best case:

- I had 1% of a 10M dollar company. They did well and now he has 1% of a 100M company (dilution in your face!).

He just lost 9M. They were actually never on the table, even thought the hiring department didn't hesitate to pretend they were.

Re:Options vs. Cash by ssambros on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @07:22PM (#14510659)
> What will happen in the best case: - I had 1% of a 10M dollar company. They did well and now he has 1% of a 100M company (dilution in your face!).

You've meant to say "They did well and now he has 0.1% of a 100M company" I assume? Otherwise numbers don't add up. If all goes well the value of a smaller percentage after dilution should be higher than before the dilution, for example: 1% of 10M ($100k) -> 0.2% of 100M ($200k).

Re:Options vs. Cash by Anderkent on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @07:33PM (#14510718)
He didn't lose 9M. In his vision they did well and increased the worth of the company without outside investment. In reality, they didn't do well at all, because 10x dilution when the company grows 10x means the company has not actually created any value, it's just been given cash.
Re:Options vs. Cash by theptip on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @11:32AM (#14507246)
Right, but the only reason you'd take on any dilution as a founder is if you think the extra money will make your shares more valuable in the future.
Re:Options vs. Cash by Swizec on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @12:04PM (#14507483)
The issue is that as an employee you don't have that choice. Somebody else makes those decisions for you, you're just along for the ride.
Re:Options vs. Cash by sillysaurus3 on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @12:24PM (#14507653)
The VC-backed company model isn't set up for employees. The model is so that (a) founders can take risks (b) using money from VCs (c) where if the company does well, the founders and VCs both become richer.

Everything else follows from that. The fact that employees get any shares at all is just a way to get better employees so that the company does well. Only employees of unicorns have any chance of getting wealthy from stock, and you're unlikely to be an early employee of a unicorn.

It's better to view the situation in absolute terms rather than relative terms. Instead of comparing the outcomes of founders/VCs vs employees, compare an employee of a startup to an employee of non-startups. At not-startups, the working environment is very different. Some people enjoy that, some prefer the opposite. Also, getting +$100k (or +$50k, or even just +$10k) is still nice, even if the founders and VCs get 800x more.

The only part I have serious concerns about is the fact that you can end up underwater when it comes time to exercise your options, i.e. your tax bill outweighs whatever profits you'd see. I don't know exactly how this situation arises, but it happened to a friend. It was something like: he could have exercised his shares and gotten several hundred thousand, but he would've needed to pay about $100k in taxes beforehand. Since he didn't have that money, he couldn't exercise the options.

I might be wrong about the specifics, but there are situations similar to that, and it's pretty unnerving knowing that you can jump into a situation where your +$100k somehow turns into -$50k.

Re:Options vs. Cash by kbenson on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @01:26PM (#14508184)
> it's pretty unnerving knowing that you can jump into a situation where your +$100k somehow turns into -$50k.

But even your example wasn't that. Your examples was -100k and +300k (or more), but offset by time slightly. That's still a very large net positive, just gated by a period of net negative.

I suspect there are some details that you are missing as to the situation of your friend. I know little about investment vehicles, but I've filed taxes at one point and paid them at a later point many times. For income taxes the rules for this are clear, and the amount you pay in fees and interest is also very clear. For some investment vehicle, I would bet if there's some taxes that need to be paid prior they have automated processes set up to pay them for you and take the amount out of the later payout, for a fee. If not, I can't imagine getting a short term loan for that would be too hard, even if you have to use private money (a real investor, or even just a friend).

Re:Options vs. Cash by sillysaurus3 on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @01:42PM (#14508333)
Yeah, I'm certain I got some of the details wrong. It sounded like a situation similar to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14464184 where you can owe taxes on money you never saw.
Re:Options vs. Cash by kristianc on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @03:22PM (#14509147)
It depends heavily on if there's any prospect of your shares becoming liquid any time in the near future.
Re:Options vs. Cash by rhizome on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @02:43PM (#14508827)
or even just +$10k

As someone who has been exactly there, this doesn't compensate for the lower salaries that are de rigeur in startups. Not to mention being an absolute insult compared to the employee's degree of contribution to the resulting event.

"Better than nothing, or being underwater" is pretty thin gruel in practice.

Re:Options vs. Cash by mnglkhn2 on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @01:42PM (#14508334)
> The VC-backed company model isn't set up for employees. The model is so that (a) founders can take risks (b) using money from VCs (c) where if the company does well, the founders and VCs both become richer.

Does this mean that stock options are not a measure of risk taken by the employee into the company?

You mean the stock options are just like cash? I didn't think so. The employee is invited to take risks but without the protections.

Re:Options vs. Cash by swolchok on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @01:17PM (#14508102)
> he could have exercised his shares and gotten several hundred thousand, but he would've needed to pay about $100k in taxes beforehand. Since he didn't have that money, he couldn't exercise the options.

I feel like at least a phone call to a bank would be in order at that point. If it's that simple, surely some sort of mutually agreeable loan could be worked out.

Re:Options vs. Cash by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @03:30PM (#14509213)
Couldn't you bootstrap it, get £5k on a credit card for the taxes to exercise some of the options, use the profit to pay the taxes on the rest (or a further bootstrap)?
Re:Options vs. Cash by dmoy on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @08:53PM (#14511083)
If the shares are not liquid 'cus the company is still private, then no you can't.
Re:Options vs. Cash by pbhjpbhj on Thursday June 08, 2017 @09:52AM (#14514154)
But the Revenue consider you to have received value in that "piece of paper" that you can't liquidate? That just seems like perverse tax law - why is it that way?

Surely if they're private shares that can't be sold the extrinsic value is zero, the private share value for tax purposes is no greater than the value of the option?

Re:Options vs. Cash by sokoloff on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @08:53PM (#14511085)
> Only employees of unicorns have any chance of getting wealthy from stock, and you're unlikely to be an early employee of a unicorn.

Define wealthy.

I have done quite well (not FU, 3-comma money, of course, but solidly 2-comma) from equity as an employee. In my current company, I joined a few months after the Series A (so nowhere near "early"), stayed through the IPO and many years of growth past that.

We were never a unicorn.

Amazon, Facebook, and Google are regularly turning SWEs into millionaires and a substantial part of that is from equity. Microsoft also had a good decade and a half of doing that. Netflix probably does as well. (OK, Facebook was a unicorn; the others probably weren't ever called that, though it may have fit.)

Re:Options vs. Cash by theptip on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @12:41PM (#14507824)
I'm not sure that's particularly relevant to this thread; there are plenty of decisions that materially affect the value of your equity that you have no say in. That's true both in a startup and at a large tech company like Google where a significant part of your comp is in RSUs.

The point in the GP post that I was expanding upon,

> It's zero net gain at the point of dilution.

is focussing on the wrong instant in time.

You should be calculating the effect of the dilution on your exit event, when your equity actually becomes exchangeable for money.

Re:Options vs. Cash by fuckemem on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @07:05PM (#14510564)
A bit like owning stocks on the stock market then I would guess. Which begs the question of whether to take a higher paying job with no options and invest the difference.
Re:Options vs. Cash by rocketraman on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @04:28PM (#14509617)
Which should have been clear to you when you joined the company and read and signed the employment and stock options agreements (you did read them, didn't you?). If that isn't to your liking, don't work for a startup.
Re:Options vs. Cash by s73ver on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @07:32PM (#14510714)
"It's in the contract!" is a poor excuse for the company acting shitty to you.
Re:Options vs. Cash by rocketraman on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @11:07PM (#14511601)
You miss the point. I don't think they are acting shitty. They're acting according to what both you and they agreed to in advance. You knew (or should have known) what they were (and were not) going to give you in return for your effort. It's only shitty of them (and illegal) if they don't follow through on that agreement.
Re:Options vs. Cash by s73ver on Thursday June 08, 2017 @01:32AM (#14512117)
And I disagree.
Re:Options vs. Cash by gesman on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @02:00PM (#14508500)
Or to prolong inevitable death.
Re:Options vs. Cash by mikepurvis on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @10:33AM (#14506732)
At the moment that the dilution occurs, you're getting exactly the same size of piece, it's just a smaller proportion of a bigger pie.

But I suppose the idea is that a bigger pie is able to expand larger and faster than it would have been otherwise.

Re:Options vs. Cash by shaftway on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @12:27PM (#14507703)
I need you to ELI5 this for me.

Let's say today I own 200 out of 10,000 shares (2%) of a company. Someone comes in and says we want to own 25% of your company and are willing to pay $100M for it. At that point (before any transactions happen) I assume that my company is worth ~$400M, and my shares are worth ~$8M ($400M * 0.02).

So the majority shareholders agree to the deal and dilute stock accordingly. Now there are 13,333 shares. The new buyer get 3,333 (25%) and I still have my 200 (now 1.5%). The company is worth that original $400M value plus the new $100M that was invested, for a total of $500M. My shares are worth ~$7.5M ($500M * 0.015).

Where did my half a million dollars of pie go?

Re:Options vs. Cash by mikepurvis on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @12:40PM (#14507819)
The $400M is a post-money valuation. The investor gave you a current valuation of $300M, and offered to add $100M for a post-money stake of 25%. Thus, 3333 new shares were created and sold to the investor for $100M.

Your slice of pie before the deal is (200/10000) * $300M = 6M

Your slice of pie after the deal is (200/13333) * $400M = 6M

Except that after the deal, your company has $100M more to spend, hopefully on investing in growing the business so that later on, you'll own 1.5% of much more than $400M.

This kind of thing is why management will sometimes try to steer employees away from discussions focused on percentages and toward ones focused on share prices. As an early employee who has been diluted a number of times, I certainly agree that it's more helpful to think in terms of my number of shares (which is unchanging) times a share price (announced at the time of the investment), rather than trying to compute my new percentage of the overall company value.

Re:Options vs. Cash by shaftway on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @12:43PM (#14507847)
Got it. This explanation makes sense to me.
Re:Options vs. Cash by scatters on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @01:05PM (#14508014)
The new investor is willing to pay $100M for 25% of the company. That means they think the company will be worth $400M after they invest $100M. That means the current value of the company is ~$300M, not ~$400M.
Re:Options vs. Cash by adamlett on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @02:37PM (#14508776)
No. What someone is willing to pay and what something intrinsically is worth is not the same thing. If the stated presumption is that the company was worth $400M before the $100M cash infusion, then it follows that it must be worth $500M after that.
Re:Options vs. Cash by sokoloff on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @08:59PM (#14511111)
Yes, but the original problem statement was flawed (over constrained and confictingly constrained).

It was "pre-money $400M", "new investment $100M", "new investment gets 25%". Those can't all be held true.

You can change exactly one of them to remove the conflict, so it's either "pre money $300M", "new investment $133.33M", or "new investment gets 20%"

Re:Options vs. Cash by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @12:36PM (#14507776)
You structured the deal wrong.

If the new people own 25% of the company, then the previous owners own 75%. That means that the new people should get one-third as many shares as previously existed (which you did correctly). But it also means that they should have to put up one-third as much money as the company was worth previously; that is, 133M, rather than the 100M you had them pay.

Your loss is your cut of the 33M loss that your company took by getting underpaid.

Re:Options vs. Cash by nathanstitt on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @10:57AM (#14506944)
Exactly! Thanks for pointing this out because everyone seems to miss it.

At the moment that an investment is made, a company should be worth just as much as it was before, but will have more liquid assets because it's traded equity for cash.

The question for employees and shareholders then becomes: "Do you believe management is capable of using the cash to build additional value, or will they waste it?"

Re:Options vs. Cash by bb88 on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @11:18AM (#14507120)
I think this would be the case where language makes a clearer understanding.

"You own 1% of the company" vs "You own 1% of the angel round stock pool."

I think it's clear(er) what the second sentence means.

Re:Options vs. Cash by wruza on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @10:57AM (#14506950)
If you're getting exactly the same size of piece, why name it "per cent"?
Re:Options vs. Cash by zalebz on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @11:21AM (#14507146)
you are getting the same amount of pie (your volume of food stays consistent) however the ratio of your piece vs the rest of the pie is what shrinks