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Re:Why we should love null results by tempodox on Sunday June 04, 2017 @12:59PM (#14482373)
I've always wondered why people call it a “failed experiment” if it disproves the hypothesis. Disproving the hypothesis is just as much an experiment's job as proving it. Doing neither would be actual failure.
Re:Why we should love null results by rflrob on Sunday June 04, 2017 @01:37PM (#14482525)
Experiments disproving the hypothesis are usually deeply unsettling, because in most cases, we have a pretty good reason for having that hypothesis to begin with---often lots of other experiments from the giants in your field. Those really smart guys (and, unfortunately it is mostly guys and not gals) are more impressive than you, J Random Gradstudent, so maybe you just screwed up the experiment. And even if the ruling hypothesis is wrong, then that means you're going to have to come up with a better one that fits both the old experiments and your new one, which is probably going to be hard to do if you want your new hypothesis to be simple and clear.

So a really clear rejection of the alternative hypothesis is great (which the article advocates for), but most of the time it's the more ambiguous non-rejection of the null (as you put it, actual failure), with a slim chance of bashing the old guard with your probably janky new hypothesis that explains it. They laughed at Galileo, they laughed at Einstein, but they also laughed at Bozo the Clown... and you don't want to be a Bozo.

Re:Why we should love null results by sverhagen on Sunday June 04, 2017 @02:21PM (#14482739)
I'm an ESL speaker, but after some searching on the Internet, I've convinced myself that "guys" is generally accepted as a mixed gender group.
Re:Why we should love null results by DanBC on Sunday June 04, 2017 @03:01PM (#14482931)
It depends where you are. Some people do strongly see it as not gender-neutral, and will loudly criticise you for using it even if you mean it in a gender-neutral way. Which is a shame, because while language is important there are probably other bits of language that are worse.

Ireland has "hey lads" as a gender-neutral term which surprised me the first few times I heard it.

Re:Why we should love null results by atomicfiredoll on Sunday June 04, 2017 @06:10PM (#14483894)
> Those really smart guys (and, unfortunately it is mostly guys and not gals)

To be fair, I'm not sure why the original poster included the gender here instead of saying "smart people." The gender thing is a bit off topic.

You are right that "guys" is often accepted ...at least as an informal second person plural. I get the impression this is because English just doesn't have a lot of great options here. Personally, I use "y'all." No matter the company you keep (with the possible exception of a group of CEOs) it works and doesn't make things awkward. That said, contractions like "Y'all'd've" start to get a bit messy and I generally stay away from those ...especially when writing.

Re:Why we should love null results by afarrell on Sunday June 04, 2017 @06:19PM (#14483945)
What's wrong with the second person plural subjunctive past perfect?
Re:Why we should love null results by skywhopper on Sunday June 04, 2017 @02:44PM (#14482849)
As an American speaker who grew up in the south and lives in the Midwest, that's not true in every case. When addressing a mixed group, "hey guys" can usually work. When talking about a group of unspecific people, it can work, but mostly because our cultural default is to assume male. When talking about a group of specific individuals "the guys in the office are smart" I would take that to be more specifically male. It's definitely not unambiguously mixed gender. In the case of the GP, the word was used to make a point about the ambiguity of the word, in a way that's very naturally idiomatic for a native English speaker, imo.
Re:Why we should love null results by lobotryas on Sunday June 04, 2017 @03:14PM (#14483002)
As another native speaker I can say that "guys" refers to a mixed gender group perfectly well. Saying that it implies a predominantly male group is more indicative of your personal life experiences or bias.

Regarding GP, my only guess is that they were virtue signaling because they explicitly went out of their way to make that point. If they really wanted to avoid gendered nouns they could have written "folks", "people", or any number of similar words (kind of like how I'm doing here, by not assuming GP's gender).

Re:Why we should love null results by falsedan on Sunday June 04, 2017 @03:49PM (#14483165)
'Folk' is fine, though try to work out how to drop 'comrade' into your vocab.

In this particular case, the OP could have used 'researchers' and: 1. avoided putting off/distracting people by the use of gendered language; 2. been more precise.

Re:Why we should love null results by GavinMcG on Sunday June 04, 2017 @05:04PM (#14483492)
Also a native speaker, here.

Seems to me that "guys" can refer to a group of men, or to a mixed-gender group, but not to a group of women. So while it's absolutely the case that it can refer to a mixed-gender group, using it that way is still problematic in that it emphasizes men's membership.

Re:Why we should love null results by lucasmullens on Sunday June 04, 2017 @06:34PM (#14484027)
I use "guys" to refer to groups of women all the time. I don't think people who say "you guys" check and make sure it isn't 100% women before saying it.
Re:Why we should love null results by leppr on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:08AM (#14486214)
"How to derail a thread 101"
Re:Why we should love null results by JadeNB on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @06:32PM (#14510376)
> They laughed at Galileo, they laughed at Einstein, but they also laughed at Bozo the Clown... and you don't want to be a Bozo.

P.S. Sez Carl Sagan (more or less).

Re:Why we should love null results by rhizome on Monday June 05, 2017 @01:06AM (#14485360)
Those really smart guys (and, unfortunately it is mostly guys and not gals) are more impressive than you, J Random Gradstudent

Bigtime survivor bias.

Am I wrong to think anything that shrinks the search space is good?

Re:Why we should love null results by Ngunyan on Sunday June 04, 2017 @08:39PM (#14484553)
Don't disrespect the clowns.
Re:Why we should love null results by xapata on Sunday June 04, 2017 @01:23PM (#14482469)
A "failed" experiment does not "disprove" a hypothesis, it only provides evidence which is not consistent with the hypothesis.
Re:Why we should love null results by contravariant on Sunday June 04, 2017 @09:50PM (#14484807)
Actually not even that, it provides evidence which is consistent with the null hypothesis.
Re:Why we should love null results by sweetdreamerit on Sunday June 04, 2017 @03:17PM (#14483011)
The matter is that the hypothesis is not disproved. From a statistical point of view, H_0 not rejected just means that we can not exclude that the difference (or the correlation) between two or more variables would be attributed to the chance (that is, the sample variance). The outcome is, of course, informative. If we organize many well designed experiments, and none of them is able to confirm the hypothesis, we can reasonably conclude that it can't be proved. The null hypothesis, however, is not as strong (in disproving a theory) as the alternative hypothesis is in proving it.
Re:Why we should love null results by closed on Sunday June 04, 2017 @02:27PM (#14482769)
Can you give an example?

I have never seen people say it was a failed experiment when it "disproved" a hypothesis. If it was able to disprove something, often that means people perceive a high degree of certainty in the results.

They might be bummed out and try to suppress its publication because they don't consider it disproof of a favorite theory, though (for whatever reason, good or bad).

Edit: I just remembered that one time I saw people complain that their analyses had "too much power", which might fit in with the parent comment's point?

Re:Why we should love null results by sova on Sunday June 04, 2017 @01:20PM (#14482456)
Experimentation is really the heart of scientific progress. Yes, experiments will yield results that do not confirm the hypothesis, that will happen very frequently, and that is good because we can chuck unnecessary results away, focusing on what fits the picture accurately, what doesn't, and what pictures we can make. I don't think it's really possible to have failure though, since you would just end up with inconclusive results and do more science.
Re:Why we should love null results by tingletech on Sunday June 04, 2017 @03:24PM (#14483064)
they failed to disprove the null hypothesis, but that does not disprove the alternative hypothesis