News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by makecheck on Friday May 26, 2017 @09:24PM (#14428407)
In computer security, every time machines become fast enough to breach the limits of an algorithm we invent something new so that “hard” problems remain “hard” and therefore encryption is still secure.

There has been no corresponding increase in the difficulty of invading privacy. 30 years ago, even though you probably “could” observe somebody for a long time and eventually connect some dots about them, it would not really have been worth your while (and you certainly wouldn’t have been able to do it for thousands or millions of people). Now, it is ridiculously easy for computers to dredge up information and instantly transmit it, slog through it and basically connect every imaginable dot. There needs to be a new standard for privacy: just like you want a 2048-bit key, you want the equivalent of a “make life a pain in the ass for Facebook” key on EVERY DETAIL of your life.

Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by ihm on Saturday May 27, 2017 @12:50AM (#14428970)
I would love if someone made a Chrome extension that encrypted all the posts and messages you put on Facebook. That is, any post you made would be made as a ciphertext, the extension would swap keys with all your friends in the background, and would decrypt their posts when displaying them to you.

Sure Marky Mark still sees when you post, who you send messages to, etc. but it's a much better situation than what's going on now. Plus it would probably put a dent in their bottom line, and so send them the message that privacy matters to people.

Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by ghughes on Saturday May 27, 2017 @02:51AM (#14429198)
You're so close to what I am currently building that I feel like I have to chime in. I left Apple's security team a few months ago to go solo and build an app that is similar to Facebook/Instagram and Snapchat in terms of functionality and UX but uses the Olm protocol (similar to Signal) to protect all content. So, fear not - something is being done, and I'm sure I'm not the only one working in this problem space. I think it's ripe for innovation, counter to popular belief; the trick is to do it in a way that doesn't require a PhD in computers to operate the damn thing, as was the issue with previous attempts.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by fiala__ on Saturday May 27, 2017 @05:12AM (#14429457)
I'm skeptical as to how worthwhile your effort is as long as the outcome is just another alternative to FB. We've seen countless examples of how these alt-social nets failed. But I do see a lot of value in the tech you might be developing, and if in some way we could embed it into existing social nets, that would be amazing. Fingers crossed!
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by benevol on Saturday May 27, 2017 @08:10AM (#14429780)
How easy would it be for Zuck to just update the TOS to say "encrypted content is against our TOS" and ban you?

Zuck can't add any encrypted content to your personal profile, which means he doesn't make any money off you. And Zuck can do pretty much whatever he wants in his castle, I'd say.

Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by bigbugbag on Saturday May 27, 2017 @11:08AM (#14430384)
Content is mostly irrelevant, metadata is way more interesting. In other words they do not care what you say, but who you say it to, when you say it, from where, at what time, and so on.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by dkarapetyan on Saturday May 27, 2017 @01:54PM (#14431084)
This is not true. They munge through the posts. In fact, that is one big reason they can target people so well.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by nebabyte on Saturday May 27, 2017 @09:10AM (#14429920)
Not very, but getting them to outright do so would be an excellent step forward for privacy.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by inimino on Sunday May 28, 2017 @05:48AM (#14433719)
I wouldn't be so sure of that.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by omnimus on Saturday May 27, 2017 @03:15AM (#14429248)
I run design collective (group of designers and design students) we have been looking for social media projects to help. Is your project aimed to be opensource or it is comercial bussiness?

We could might be able to help. Even just with small things like design analisys and testing.

Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by ghughes on Saturday May 27, 2017 @03:26AM (#14429268)
Both; there will be ads and the source will be publicly available, license TBD. Please get in touch, email is in my profile.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by killin_dan on Sunday May 28, 2017 @12:58PM (#14435167)
You just killed your project. Nobody is going to use a security centric product littered with ads. Ads are exactly what people should be worried about, tracking their tabs and browsing activities.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by bigbugbag on Saturday May 27, 2017 @11:09AM (#14430390)
Ads means tracking a.k.a. no privacy.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by ghughes on Saturday May 27, 2017 @02:21PM (#14431206)
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by choward on Saturday May 27, 2017 @02:24PM (#14431216)
Ads? Ha. I'm out.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by amelius on Saturday May 27, 2017 @05:42AM (#14429520)
Very interesting.

> the trick is to do it in a way that doesn't require a PhD in computers to operate the damn thing, as was the issue with previous attempts

This sounds similar to the story of PGP. Many attempts have been made to get people to use it, but it just didn't catch on (on a big scale). So I'm curious: how will it be different this time?

Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by ensiferum on Saturday May 27, 2017 @04:35AM (#14429397)
I see the problem with this is gaining traction. With no users on board you'll have no users on board.

Unless ofc you're just building this for yourself and your friends, which is something I thought about doing myself but then realized that even my friends cba to install yet another chat app.

Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by smcnally on Saturday May 27, 2017 @06:58PM (#14432309)
> I see the problem with this is gaining traction. With no users on board you'll have no users on board

That's the same reason Facebook would never beat MySpace and MySpace would lose out to Friendster.

Metcalf's Law and initial traction are real challenges to achieving critical mass of users, but it has been done. I'm biased to hope for @ghughes success and that enough people care about privacy to give it or similar services a shot.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe%27s_law

Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by singham on Saturday May 27, 2017 @10:25AM (#14430182)
How are you going to recreate the main selling point of facebook, i.e. the Newsfeed ? If things are encrypted, how are you going to determine relevance, etc.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by ghughes on Saturday May 27, 2017 @02:06PM (#14431146)
> How are you going to recreate the main selling point of facebook, i.e. the Newsfeed ?

When you post, the content is sent as an encrypted message that can only be decrypted by people who should be able to see it (either all of your friends or just a subset of them). The client automatically takes care of key management and is responsible for keeping track of sent & received posts, comments, etc; it renders a news-feed-like UI on top of that data. The end result is a familiar UX on the surface, but the underlying mechanism for transmitting data between users is far more secure than the traditional approach of using a monolithic database that contains everyone's data in plaintext.

> If things are encrypted, how are you going to determine relevance, etc.

The client is solely responsible for that. For now the "news feed" is strictly chronological, but I plan to augment it later by prioritizing posts that might be particularly interesting to the user. There are plenty of ways to make those decisions locally.

Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by bigbugbag on Saturday May 27, 2017 @11:10AM (#14430396)
The selling point of facebook is not the newsfeed. The selling point is that every other person is already registered on facebook.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by magog on Saturday May 27, 2017 @10:05AM (#14430098)
hey, im going to implement something similar as well, and your idea gave me an idea - id 'like some help getting started - grappling with crypto since im new.

can we get in touch somehow ? too bad hn doesn't allow private messages.

Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by wmeredith on Saturday May 27, 2017 @01:02AM (#14428998)
Eh, your head is in the right place, but honestly if you have all the meta data, the message content almost isn't needed.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by denzil_correa on Saturday May 27, 2017 @08:31AM (#14429830)
Exactly. I also think that encrypting data is a smokescreen to gain brownie points. Yes, it is more secure than not encrypting messages but the effect of message encryption on your privacy is very low.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by nsajko on Monday May 29, 2017 @01:05PM (#14440088)
See my reply to ihm about how to deny Fb metadata.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by zeroer on Saturday May 27, 2017 @06:49AM (#14429638)
If you have out-of-band connections with all your friends and you have friends who are willing to jump through weird, nerdy, technical hoops, what do you need Facebook for?
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by ihm on Thursday June 08, 2017 @02:10PM (#14515931)
There would be no out-of-band connections. The extension uses Diffie Hellman or something to swap keys with your friends over Facebook (or maybe through a server run by the extension provider.)
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by bigbugbag on Saturday May 27, 2017 @11:06AM (#14430372)
This is missing the point as metadata is way more sensible than actual message content. Besides, being contrary to ToS you'd get your facebook account blocked or banned.

Look at how fast AdNauseam got the boot from google to get an idea.

Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by nsajko on Monday May 29, 2017 @01:05PM (#14440093)
See my reply to ihm about how to deny Fb metadata and circumvent usage restrictions.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by ATsch on Saturday May 27, 2017 @05:15AM (#14429463)
This is Firefox only, but have a look at facecloak.

https://crysp.uwaterloo.ca/software/facecloak/

Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by nsajko on Monday May 29, 2017 @12:57PM (#14440051)
Don't know how many will read this now, I'd just like to point out that since you can only message addresses/accounts you're "friends with" on Fb AFAIK, you can effectively broadcast to all your friends without Fb knowing the plain-text recipients.

It is simply necessary to have the plain-text in a publically known format, e.g. prepended with date or name or whatever. Then you post the cypher-text to your "timeline" (or whatever it's called) and try decrypting all your friends' posts to find which one is meant for you.

To get around Fb-imposed usage restrictions use a steganography or obfuscation tool. https://seecret.io is already linked to somewhere on this thread.

Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by deno on Saturday May 27, 2017 @06:50AM (#14429639)
At this point you are bootstrapping a parallel social network, with all the pitfalls this entails.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by nmgsd on Saturday May 27, 2017 @02:47PM (#14431321)
I agree strongly with you that the direction to be taken is independent messaging clients for existing messaging channels as long as those channels allow third party API use.

What channel would you use to share the keys on FB? The Facebook API simply will not let you do that anymore. Direct messages have a character limit and you can't just post to someone's wall anymore.

I tried working on something like this for seecret.io but was confounded by the Facebook API's limitations.

Twitter is much better for that. Probably other network too.

Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by nsajko on Monday May 29, 2017 @12:41PM (#14439969)
What's the point of encryption if you are going to share the keys via fb? That does not seem better than using a substitution cypher.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by ihm on Thursday June 08, 2017 @02:12PM (#14515942)
You use Diffie–Hellman. "Diffie–Hellman key exchange method allows two parties that have no prior knowledge of each other to jointly establish a shared secret key over an insecure channel." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffie–Hellman_key_exchange)
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by sandov on Saturday May 27, 2017 @03:12AM (#14429242)
I had thought something similar, but with Google drive instead of Facebook. To create a rogue client that encrypts my files, uploads them to Drive encrypted, but presents them nicely unencrypted in my local machine. That way I get the free (as in beer) cloud storage, but google doesn't spy on my files.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by dexterdog on Saturday May 27, 2017 @08:50AM (#14429872)
There are many tools that do that. On Windows I have used stablebit clouddrive which is great.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by stevenhuang on Saturday May 27, 2017 @06:06AM (#14429556)
Arq Backup is a popular tool that does just that.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by dkarapetyan on Saturday May 27, 2017 @01:52PM (#14431075)
How would you finance and support this endeavor? Also, why wouldn't Facebook ban all such users? Facebook is a private platform and they make the rules on how you get to play with it.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by gruez on Saturday May 27, 2017 @01:26AM (#14429046)
so like, PGP?
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by fooker on Sunday May 28, 2017 @09:51AM (#14434369)
But for Facebook! Probably also need to throw in a Tinder and Uber to exchange keys properly.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by tunesmith on Friday May 26, 2017 @11:57PM (#14428857)
Is there any work being done on making tracking our details more worthless? Like... generating fake data, honeypot browsing behavior, etc?
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by prostoalex on Saturday May 27, 2017 @12:27AM (#14428917)
AdNauseaum
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by eriknstr on Saturday May 27, 2017 @08:42AM (#14429856)
You have slight misspelling. The name is AdNauseam. Their website is https://adnauseam.io/
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by dexterdog on Saturday May 27, 2017 @08:51AM (#14429875)
Something like that integrated with pihole would be awesome.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by NabenHarb on Friday May 26, 2017 @10:56PM (#14428708)
You have essentially described differential privacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_privacy).

The main issue is that there is no reason for companies like Facebook to fully adopt it, since it doesn't benefit them and there is no outside pressure forcing them to do so.

Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by denzil_correa on Saturday May 27, 2017 @08:32AM (#14429833)
May be I'm the only one but how is the parent referring to Differential Privacy? Differential Privacy is "one way" to achieve privacy. The parent comment talks about a different standard for privacy the moment computing power increases.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by crucialfelix on Sunday May 28, 2017 @02:08AM (#14433302)
How about a Scramble Suit as in a Scanner Darkly ? A browser extension that supplies fake events to all the tracking scripts. Fake website visits, fake clicks, fake session duration. Couple this with a network of VPN so that you are appearing in multiple locations, scrambled with everyone else using the service.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by draw_down on Friday May 26, 2017 @10:18PM (#14428592)
Security breaches are bad for capital. Privacy invasions like this are good for capital.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by jngreenlee on Friday May 26, 2017 @11:18PM (#14428754)
Security breaches are bad for one party's capital, good for another party's capital.

It's interesting to contemplate WHY is there a difference between the two. Security and Private both nasciently have something to do with "info I'd like to keep to myself", but I'm not sure I can come up with a hard delineation between the two, at least when you try to go above "A/S/L" and below "user/pass".

Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by nine_k on Saturday May 27, 2017 @12:44AM (#14428958)
A security breach allows to use the victim's resources: from CPU and bandwidth to money directly on your bank account.

A privacy breach allows... what? Where's a direct threat?

A privacy breach can be a first step to a security breach, though. Social engineering is all about it. Social networks can be, too.

Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by fauigerzigerk on Saturday May 27, 2017 @08:12AM (#14429783)
>A privacy breach allows... what? Where's a direct threat?

A privacy breach could mean that your job application is rejected, that you pay higher interest on a loan or higher insurance premiums.

It could mean that your health insurance refuses cover for some treatment because some data points towards a pre-existing condition.

You could be rejected as a tenant based on the scoring done by a referencing agency or you could get searched every time you cross a border.

In a more unlikely event could even become the victim of a miscarriage of justice or get blackmailed by a corrupt government official.

Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by gaius on Saturday May 27, 2017 @05:57AM (#14429548)
A privacy breach allows... what? Where's a direct threat?

Any means of authentication that relies on personal data. SSN, mother's maiden name, postal address, date of birth, etc.

Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by bigbugbag on Saturday May 27, 2017 @11:20AM (#14430445)
Privacy is the basis for fundamental freedoms.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by pokemongoaway on Saturday May 27, 2017 @11:38AM (#14430518)
Great explanation. Would love to see more companies that understood this - we would buy their products! :)
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by fidz on Saturday May 27, 2017 @04:53AM (#14429424)
Exactly. Once we can understand P vs. NP completely, all cypto algorithm today will be obsolete since crypto algorithm today ONLY rely on that "hard" problem.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by d33 on Saturday May 27, 2017 @05:03AM (#14429437)
Only if P = NP, right?
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by Mosi1 on Friday May 26, 2017 @10:13PM (#14428573)
How many times has your privacy been invaded?
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by adamnemecek on Friday May 26, 2017 @10:48PM (#14428700)
Send me your credit card info, I promise not to abuse it.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by fictioncircle on Friday May 26, 2017 @11:32PM (#14428794)
It terms of a hostile 3rd party and not an automated system? 5 times.

Snoopy relatives of women I have dated a couple times, a couple times by PIs paid to track me down, and a stalker once.

So...yeah. It's a real problem and none of these people had a legitimate cause to do so. Even beyond FB, etc. I don't post my face online because of shit like that.

Other people have stopped posting pics of me as well, a couple people have been called based on my name being tagged to things on social media.

Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by ocdtrekkie on Saturday May 27, 2017 @02:05AM (#14429114)
I went in and untagged myself from a bunch of stuff my parents posted after my online friend commented on one of the pictures. It wasn't that it was super problematic, it's just I realized I really didn't want family pictures broadcast to my friends.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by fictioncircle on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @12:30PM (#14498529)
I don't have a FB account.
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by zepto on Friday May 26, 2017 @10:57PM (#14428710)
Don't you mean how many times per minute?
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by tmsldd on Saturday May 27, 2017 @02:33AM (#14429163)
per second.. it would be a more suitable scale
Re:Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think by PhasmaFelis on Friday May 26, 2017 @11:11PM (#14428747)
Pretty much continuously for the last umpty years, I'd say. It doesn't have to be immediately and personally catastrophic to be a serious problem.