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Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by maxxxxx on Friday May 26, 2017 @01:47PM (#14425876)
I think knowledge about auditory, visual, or kinesthetic is still very useful. For example, I mainly learn by doing or reading. If someone gives me a lecture I will remember almost nothing later.

It's not the answer to everything but it helps to think about it..

Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by jordigh on Friday May 26, 2017 @02:09PM (#14426036)
> For example, I mainly learn by doing or reading. If someone gives me a lecture I will remember almost nothing later.

The myth here is that you might think you're different than others in this regard. Pretty much every human can easily space out during a lecture. Pretty much every human can learn something better if they do it themselves or can understand a graph better than a list of numbers. Everyone is a visual learner, everyone learns by doing. A lesson should incorporate all of these aspects.

Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by wolco on Friday May 26, 2017 @03:21PM (#14426494)
For different people each one of those methods might he easier than the other.

I pay attention in lectures and meeting never take notes and that forces me to take everything in and engage fully. Reading and learning is more difficult because it involved in two activities .

Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by maxxxxx on Friday May 26, 2017 @02:17PM (#14426069)
I am different from others. I have a combination of genetic traits plus life experience that makes me different. So is everybody else different from others. Some more extroverted, some more introverted. Some learn better visually, some kinesthetic, some auditive. This doesn't mean someone is exclusively visual but there certainly are preferences.
Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by dragonwriter on Friday May 26, 2017 @03:18PM (#14426480)
> Some learn better visually, some kinesthetic, some auditive.

That's the exact myth that actual research has shown is mostly false.

> This doesn't mean someone is exclusively visual but there certainly are preferences.

There are certainly preferences (in some part, this is a product of people buying into the myth), but the research keeps showing that catering to those preferences doesn't actually improve learning, and actually makes it worse compared to balanced approaches which address multiple modes rather than focussing on a learners perceived "preferred" mode.

Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by Glyptodon on Friday May 26, 2017 @03:05PM (#14426382)
People having preferences doesn't mean it's good for them to always have those preferences catered to or that their preferences actually match any empirical evidence evaluating their personal learning performance. It's even possible that people might decide "I don't learn this way" and tune out in situations where they could still learn if they latch onto only using their preferred "style."
Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by dragandj on Friday May 26, 2017 @03:10PM (#14426422)
You cannot learn dancing by singing, whatever preferences you have. You have to dance. That's what the article is about.
Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by maxxxxx on Friday May 26, 2017 @03:44PM (#14426620)
I can learn dancing by observing other dancers or I can learn dancing by someone telling me the steps. Some people prefer the first approach, some the second. There is no single way to learn dancing.
Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by madhadron on Friday May 26, 2017 @04:49PM (#14427056)
Actually, both the ways you describe don't work. Observing other dancers is not helpful unless you already have a mental framework to know what you should be observing. Learning to dance by being told steps is ineffective because it doesn't teach you how to actually interact with other dancers, maintain flow, handle the unexpected, or feel where your body mechanics are.

Based on teaching a lot of people to dance and watching a lot of other teaching, the most effective thing I have found is to put someone in a practice dance hold (both people's arms on the other's shoulders, mostly straight) and sway back and forth until they start to feel body connection. Then start to change the magnitude of the sway, make a few simple steps with no warning, just keeping them rooted in the kinesthetic sense of connection. And when that connection is strong enough, bring them into close hold and just start into a waltz. I will have to massively overcompensate on turns initially because they don't know how to do them, but after a few turns around the room, they're ready for that correction. Left turns don't happen that first time out. Then take them contradancing, where they will be guided through interactions among lots of dancers and given a feel for flow. Add something like Renaissance or Scottish low country and you get step work. Only at this point is it useful to start observing other dancers or being told things.

Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by WalterBright on Friday May 26, 2017 @05:05PM (#14427173)
> I can learn dancing by observing other dancers

You could always tell the self-taught ones. Their mental image of what their dance looked like did not match what others saw. That's because what you think you see is not what the actual movement is.

I know it's hard to believe, but it's true. A lot of dance movement is awkward and contorted, but it looks natural and fluid.

Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by dragandj on Friday May 26, 2017 @04:16PM (#14426817)
You actually learned dancing by having someone telling you the steps? What dance exactly, and how did they explain the steps? What skill level did you achieve?
Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by maxxxxx on Friday May 26, 2017 @04:35PM (#14426967)
I thought most people learn dancing by someone telling them the steps. At least in ballroom dancing. How do they explain the steps? "left, left, right, 1,2,3,4 turn" or similar. I never got really good but I think was a competent dancer.

In any case, this thread is not fun anymore. Either I am totally weird or there is some communication going wrong.

Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by dragonwriter on Friday May 26, 2017 @04:47PM (#14427040)
> I thought most people learn dancing by someone telling them the steps.

No. Most people learn dancing by watching and repeating, with some explanation along with it.

> At least in ballroom dancing. How do they explain the steps?

In large part by demonstration (there's description that goes along, but the demonstration is primary.) Source: I've nearly completed a long course of instruction for ballroom dance teachers, from a well-regarded teacher-of-teachers, and have taken lots of ballroom dance classes, some from internationally-recognized teachers.

> "left, left, right, 1,2,3,4 turn" or similar.

That's more how they cue students going through a pattern that's been demonstrated than how they explain a pattern. You can explain a pattern in words without demonstration (manuals do this, for instance), but that's usually done as reference material that accompanied traditional teaching-by-demonstration (or, for auto-didacts, videos in place of in-person demonstration), and it sucks on its own; you need a lot of contextual knowledge to get value out of it.

Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by WalterBright on Friday May 26, 2017 @05:10PM (#14427207)
Teaching dance by steps is like teaching racing by telling the student to turn left 4 times each lap.
Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by cestith on Friday May 26, 2017 @04:29PM (#14426908)
Nobody fully learns dancing by either of those methods. To be a dancer, one must learn dance by dancing.
Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by nerfhammer on Friday May 26, 2017 @03:34PM (#14426569)
Is reading "visual"? Lectures are auditory? Although you can also see the lecturer probably...

Why not just say you learn better by reading? What is gained by dubiously subjectively categorizing everything into just "auditory", "visual", or "kinesthetic"?

Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by Retra on Friday May 26, 2017 @01:56PM (#14425950)
It doesn't really help, though. When a student fails to learn something, it doesn't do any good to sit around wondering what "kind of learner" they are. You need to figure out what actually stopped then from learning. Students need to be able to learn from the world they live in, not from some meticulously sterilized learning laboratory.

If you can't learn from a lecture, you need to solve that problem by figuring out how to actually change yourself to learn from a lecture, not by avoiding lectures. You need to understand what can actually be learned from a lecture and what needs additional outside experience.

Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by maxxxxx on Friday May 26, 2017 @02:07PM (#14426018)
The world we live in is not fixed, but can be changed. I don't think it makes sense to bang your head against a limitation you have but instead you should find ways to work around. For the students who doesn't do well with lectures it may mean to read a book or get some hands-on experience. For the teacher it may mean to give handouts before the lecture or offer some hands-on lab.
Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by gizmo686 on Friday May 26, 2017 @02:59PM (#14426351)
It depends who "you" are. If you are a student, your job is to maximize your learning given the instruction provided [0]. If you are a teacher, your job is to maximize your teaching given your students ability. One way to do this might be to train the student to learn a certain way. Another way to do this might be to train yourself to teach a certain way. The optimal solution probably involves having both students trained to learn, and teachers trained to teach. This begs the question of what "optimal teaching" is. More specifically, is optimal teaching lectures? I don't know the answer to this question, but it sure is useful to have scientists looking into it.

>Students need to be able to learn from the world they live in, not from some meticulously sterilized learning laboratory.

So, not from lectures?

[0] or seek out more appropriate instruction.

Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by Retra on Friday May 26, 2017 @06:33PM (#14427680)
Lectures serve a purpose. People tend treat them like comedy shows where they get a series of punchlines and hope it gives them a satisfying giggle of enlightenment. You're supposed to walk into a lecture already knowing the punchlines. Then you can spend that time exploring how to optimally organize the information in your brain and cleaning up misunderstandings. It is almost impossible to pay attention to a full lecture. Your mind will wander. That's why you have to have a cursory familiarity before you approach them. And then you can enjoy having your mind wander, because it will wander into good questions, insights, and interesting relationships. Learning will happen. If you're prepared.

If someone isn't learning during a lecture, it's because they're not spending enough time on the subject outside of the lectures. It's not because they have an alternative "learning style". That would be like saying sitting on the couch is an "alternative dancing style." It's not a matter of style, it's a matter of understanding where you have to put your effort to achieve those goals. Maybe they weren't taught to do it. Maybe they've just never tried. Maybe things are in the way.

In the end, lectures are cheap. And this matters. You need to learn how to extract good knowledge from cheap sources. If you can't do that, then good luck convincing anybody to invest more in you over those that can.

Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by gizmo686 on Friday May 26, 2017 @07:47PM (#14428014)
I am not defending the concept of "learning styles"; the scientists cited in the article are undoubtedly more qualified that I on that subject. I was responding to the claim that the problem is students who cannot learn from lectures, and the solution is to teach children to learn from lectures. That might be the case; but I was pointing out that another option to consider was changing our method of instruction (either away from lectures entirely, to a hybrid system, or even to a better form of lectures); and it is counter productive to dismiss this path out of hand.

I will also point out that the article is an attack on "learning styles", not a defense of lectures. Responding to some of your points:

>You're supposed to walk into a lecture already knowing the punchlines.

This was not my experience through high-school. Most of my class's in high-school and before would assign readings after the corresponding lecture; often times I would not even know what to study before the lecture.

Even in college my experience is different. Ignoring the useless lectures, I found that most of my lectures were more useful before I studied the material. This is probably heavily biased by subject matter: most of my useful lectures are in math, where the lecture serves as a broad overview of the material, which serves as a foundation for when I open the textbook to dig into the details. [0].

In contrast, in my linguistic classes, it is essential that I read the material before class: the lecture would simply not make sense without the reading, and what was being presented in lecture is often not present in the textbook. Having said that, and thinking more about those classes, it seems like my linguistics professors are aware of these issues: while textbook readings come before lectures, research paper readings are almost always come between lectures (eg. we would talk about an experiment and the results, then read the paper at home, then talk about the results again).

Again, the question is not lectures vs learning styles. The question in the article is "learning styles?", to which the answer seems to be no. This does not necessarily mean that the answer is lectures. And it almost certainly does not mean lectures in their current form.

[0] As an aside, this is probably a deficit in my ability to learn math. The "correct" way to learn math is to first go over the material once, then go back and understand the material in a second go-through. I have trouble doing the first step without the lecture environment forcing me not to jump straight to the second.

Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by posterboy on Friday May 26, 2017 @04:37PM (#14426977)
Often enough the lecturer is the problem and cannot just be changed. That's a bold claim, sure, but in my experience not an uncommon opinion. "Lectures" I guess is directed at university classes, so your second paragraph seems slightly detached from the first one and from the topic of primary education.
Re:Teachers must ditch 'neuromyth' of learning styles, say s... by joeberon on Friday May 26, 2017 @05:24PM (#14427314)
No one gets anything straight from the lecture though. I don't know a single person who managed to follow a physics lecture course all the way through without getting lost at some point. I think the most important part of learning is repetition, you have to learn the content multiple times before it fully sinks in. Once from the lectures, then going through the lecture notes, then (maybe) the book, then problems, then exam questions. Repetition is key