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Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by beefield on Thursday May 25, 2017 @02:30AM (#14415648)
I have never quite understood why libertarians think that is the precise optimum for the amount of government activities and their "theft" of my money via taxation.

Don't libertarians understand or accept that there are market failures that government is needed to solve? Or do they think that in every case government makes more bad than good when trying to solve market failures? Or is it just that freedom of individuals is more important than fixing market failures (In which case I must wonder by what logic it is important for a government to stop me being killed by another person but not at all important to stop me being killed by a market failure? I end dead in both cases...)?

Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by afsina on Thursday May 25, 2017 @02:41AM (#14415694)
There are a lot of literature about this. But to answer to your question, whole concept of "Market failure" is considered a myth. Just two articles among many:

https://mises.org/library/market-failure-myth https://mises.org/library/response-market-failure-drones

Thomas J. DiLorenzo's light book "Organized Crime" has some chapters about it as well. It is available there.

https://mises.org/library/organized-crime-unvarnished-truth-...

Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by anentropic on Thursday May 25, 2017 @07:10AM (#14416556)
In other words a faith-based ideology, where markets cannot fail by definition
Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by baddox on Thursday May 25, 2017 @02:21PM (#14419067)
I'd suggest this article as a better libertarian treatment of market failure:

"Market Failure: An Argument for and Against Government"

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Machinery_3d_Edition/Market%20...

David Friedman doesn't deny that market failures exist, but he points out that the exact same economic phenomenon happens with government, and there's no inherent reason why government is more or less susceptible to it than markets.

Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by afsina on Thursday May 25, 2017 @07:14AM (#14416574)
No, what they say is, failures will occur but markets can heal themselves better than government intervention.
Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by beefield on Thursday May 25, 2017 @07:40AM (#14416677)
But that is pretty much an unfalsifiable claim, which puts it quite strongly into the "faith-based ideology" category.
Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by logicchains on Thursday May 25, 2017 @10:15AM (#14417420)
>In which case I must wonder by what logic it is important for a government to stop me being killed by another person but not at all important to stop me being killed by a market failure?

Many forms of libertianism are deontological (based on principles, e.g. "natural rights"[1]) rather than utilitarian (based on ends). A libertarian might believe that if they obtain something either by finding/making it or accepting it from someone else, potentially in exchange for providing some good/service to that other person, then they have a natural right to that property. This means they'd view it immoral for anyone else to take it off them without their consent, and hence oppose taxation. Some Christians are also libertarian for this reason: they take "Thou Shalt Not Steal" as an absolute, not making exception for people acting on behalf of others.

Such Libertarians generally support only "negative rights", not "positive rights". A negative right means the right to have other people not interfere with you (e.g. hurt you or take your property), while a positive right is a right to have other people do something for you (e.g. feed you when you're hungry or pull you out of a river when you're drowning). Many concepts of "market failure" only make sense when assuming the existence of positive rights: that the other people/the market owes you something or should work towards some specific end. Libertarians would hence not necessarily consider these a failure: from that perspective, the immoral thing is someone killing you, not necessarily you dying per se, if no-one is actively trying to harm you. There are also some forms of market failure, however, "negative externalities", that many libertarians do believe in, and the proposed solution is to strengthen property rights (so e.g. class action lawsuits are allowed against any kind of polluters, and unlike the BP lawsuit the government cannot cap the payout).

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights

Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by wyager on Thursday May 25, 2017 @02:40AM (#14415685)
Libertarians don't posit a precise optimum. They are generally of the opinion that the optimum is quite a bit lower than what we have right now.

> Don't libertarians understand or accept that there are market failures that government is needed to solve?

The only credible "failure" I'm aware of is the need to internalize of public externalities, which can be achieved in a number of liberty-friendly ways. See, for example, the Coase theorem.

Libertarians recognize that these models are not exact, but they do suggest that we can do better.

Perhaps you could list some of the market failures you are thinking of?

Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by semi-extrinsic on Thursday May 25, 2017 @03:20AM (#14415838)
> See, for example, the Coase theorem

Which only holds when transaction costs are negligible, i.e., never. Which was precisely Coase's point in that work - he showed that mathematically, it doesn't matter what initial distribution you put on something (his example was radio broadcast frequency allocations), since the final Pareto-optimal distribution is independent of initial conditions. This is the Coase theorem. But as soon as you include transaction costs, the theorem fails to hold, and initial distribution is important.

A few obvious market failures:

* Microsoft monopoly in the late 90s

* Too little being done to reduce CO2 emissions, since emission costs are externalized and delayed

* Broadband providers in the US

* EpiPen pricing

* Essentially every Health and Safety regulation ever exists to fix a market failure. In the small government world, employers see no cost of workers dying of lung cancer in their 60s from breathing asbestos, etc.

I could go on.

Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by driverdan on Thursday May 25, 2017 @09:16AM (#14417065)
> * Microsoft monopoly in the late 90s

MS had better products than everyone else. It was a market success.

> * Too little being done to reduce CO2 emissions, since emission costs are externalized and delayed

This is within a libertarian government's purview. Negative externalities should be regulated since it's protection of citizens.

> * Broadband providers in the US

Government authorized duopolies / monopolies, not a market failure.

> * EpiPen pricing

Result of current laws, not a market failure.

> * Essentially every Health and Safety regulation ever exists to fix a market failure. In the small government world, employers see no cost of workers dying of lung cancer in their 60s from breathing asbestos, etc.

Companies have an incentive to avoid harming their workers. It has a significant negative impact on their reputation and workers could seek civil damages.

Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by tom_mellior on Thursday May 25, 2017 @05:24AM (#14416190)
I'm not a libertarian and agree with you on all points except...

> * EpiPen pricing

My understanding was that part of the problem with the EpiPen was a monopoly due to patent issues. Patents are monopolies created by the government, so the market failures they cause are in fact government failures.

Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by dredmorbius on Thursday May 25, 2017 @08:52AM (#14416965)
There's a bit of a drugs problem anyhow:

http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2012/03/08/ero...

And, well, medicine ain't all it's cracked up to be:

https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/msqfdpan_0xudzuorebfbg

Which is to say, you're vastly better off investing in public health measures than in intensive medical interventions.

(See Laurie Garrett, The Coming Plague, for more on that theme.)

Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by semi-extrinsic on Thursday May 25, 2017 @05:38AM (#14416228)
I agree. But the flipside is that without patents, no-one would be spending money on drug development, since there would be 100% probability that someone straight-up copies your drug that you spent 5 years and $50 million to develop, and can then sell profitably at a lower price and capture the market.

I think we can all agree that drug patents in particular are a necessary evil. On other patents (in particular software) I'm a lot more skeptical. And that's not to say "Big Pharma" isn't trying to abuse the system to maximise their profits.

Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by tom_mellior on Thursday May 25, 2017 @06:02AM (#14416311)
Necessary evil: yes, to some extent. I didn't say "get rid of all patents", just that they can cause market failures.

I could imagine some models to make them less evil, for example by having a scheme that forces companies to grant fairly priced licenses to their competitors. Or, for drugs whose availability is in society's general interest, a government reimbursing the development costs. For both of these one would need a fair way of determining development costs, but as far as I understand pharma research already has a detailed paper trail to make sure their patent applications are bullet-proof.

Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by wyager on Thursday May 25, 2017 @11:27AM (#14417890)
> Which only holds when transaction costs are negligible,

That's why I said these models are not exact. They still work ok; instead of being Pareto optimal we're epsilon-Pareto optimal. With some form of small government managing large-scale many-party contracts, we can bring the overhead of Coase-style externality management down very low.

> Too little being done to reduce CO2 emissions,

Again, via Coase, we could find an approximately correct internalization incentive via increasing the purview of trespass law. Polluting would involve the purchase of easement rights. This would be very hard to organize with no government, but feasible with a small government.

> Microsoft monopoly in the late 90s

The government didn't solve this problem, they contributed to it. One of the reasons MS got so huge was federal procurement contracts. The MS monopoly got busted up because other companies (namely Apple) started making better computers, and now we also have Google and Linux in the fold in a major way.

> Broadband providers in the US

This is the fault of regional government line leasing rules, which prevent competition by only allowing one company (maybe 2) to service a building at a time. If the government were behaving optimally, either from a social good or profit-making perspective, we would have more ISPs per building in most places, leading to actual competition.

> EpiPen pricing

FDA's fault. http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/08/29/reverse-voxsplaining-dr...

> Essentially every Health and Safety regulation ever exists to fix a market failure. In the small government world, employers see no cost of workers dying of lung cancer in their 60s from breathing asbestos, etc.

This was fixed because of legislative pressure by labor unions, not out of the charity of the government. If the government decided they weren't responsible for this, unions would just have taken a different approach. Probably just some sort of insurance contract internalizing the risk of contracting a work-related injury or illness.

> I could go on.

Please do; nothing you've said so far has been very compelling.

Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by beefield on Thursday May 25, 2017 @03:53AM (#14415947)
To me, probably the most important market failures rise from information asymmetries. Not only the textbook cases where you know something I don't, but would understand if you told that to me (lemon markets for cars), but the ones where I am so dumb compared to you that even if you tried to explain me, I would not understand (monty hall problem as an extremely simple example). Even further, the issues where you manipulate me to want things that are bad for me, are a kind of information asymmetry.

The problem is that the latter concepts do not seem to enter mainstream economics or libertarian mindset. People (including me) are manipulable and stupid. And having no control how much stupid people are going to be manipulated for benefit of others, would end up very bad very fast.

What comes to Coase, here is an interesting example of Coase failures: http://evonomics.com/resolve-fights-reclining-airplane-seats...

Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by postozoan on Thursday May 25, 2017 @05:23AM (#14416186)
Besides externalized costs, which is gigantic issue that is not easy to solve. These problems are also clear market failures:

Large scale goals with large public benefits but which come at high costs will not be achieved without high level cooperation. For every individual market participant, the public education system, the public highway system, the public energy system, etc. have costs far exceeding their means. Yet every market participant benefits enough that they are happy they exist. The level of cooperation needed requires organization at the scale of at least local government.

Dealing with external factors, such as other nations -especially if they're hostile- or natural threats. Individual market participants can not muster armies (unless they are at the scale of governments), cant bargain with foreign governments on equal terms and will not provide (preventive) care for disasters/diseasese/etc. Would microsoft or walmart vaccinate everyone?

Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by wyager on Thursday May 25, 2017 @11:54AM (#14418070)
I had a longer response written out, but my phone browser crashed and I have to go soon. This will be brief.

> externalized costs

Coase theorem and strong trespass law.

> Large scale goals with large public benefits but which come at high costs

Assurance contracts.

> public education system,

Private schools perform better across the board. If public schools didn't exist, I would expect to see more parochial and charity schools.

> public highway system

Replacing the IH system with privately operated toll roads is well within the reach of US investment banks, and it would be a safe bet. Plus they would be incentivized to actually do repairs quickly, unlike on public roads. Wins all around!

> public energy system,

Sure, this is a hard good to privatize due to line easement requirements. There are ways around this, but I think practically libertarians would agree with the government managing things like water pipes or electrical lines. This will become less of an issue in the near future as being off-grid on solar becomes practical for more people. (Or if we end up with small-scale community nuclear, like some are working towards.)

> Yet every market participant benefits enough that they are happy they exist.

If you think they'll still be happy after being made aware of how much they're paying (instead of it being obfuscated via taxes and respending) then there's no problem.

> armies

PMCs and military insurance. This would almost certainly be more efficient than the current bloated military we have in the US.

> disasters/disease

Insurance again.

> Would microsoft or walmart vaccinate everyone?

Does the government vaccinate everyone now? (No, they do not.)

Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by dredmorbius on Thursday May 25, 2017 @08:49AM (#14416950)
Pricing of information goods. See Robert Nozick.

Gresham's Law -- race-to-the-bottom markets.

The price of extractive resources.

Rents, generally.

The fact that wealth is power.

Totally drug-resistant tuberculosis.

Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by BurningFrog on Thursday May 25, 2017 @01:20PM (#14418661)
> Don't libertarians understand or accept that there are market failures that government is needed to solve?

There are levels of insight here.

1. Free markets create wealth and make everyone better off. Go libertarianism!

2. Economics shows the are market failures in the real world. Go socialism!

3. Public Choice theory shows there are major government failures in the real world. Go...?

Once at level 3, reasonable people can disagree in what cases imperfect real markets are superior to imperfect real government.

But if you you're only at level 2, which is how I read your post, you're comparing imperfect real markets with idealized perfect government.

Re:Bringing back the Somali shilling by beefield on Thursday May 25, 2017 @01:52PM (#14418874)
Well, in my second sentence I admit that government can do bad:

> Or do they think that in every case government makes more bad...