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Re:China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says by jseliger on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @08:24PM (#14414493)
and there will need to be a reckoning

And yet when I read things like this I also think of the cliché, "Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent."

People have been waiting decades for Japan's post-boom day of reckoning and we've not seen it.

Re:China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says by Analemma_ on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @08:31PM (#14414524)
> People have been waiting decades for Japan's post-boom day of reckoning and we've not seen it.

Japan's "day of reckoning" already came: what they've been in for the last 25+ years is the "post-reckoning" of ZIRP, low growth and low inflation. If the Chinese debt bubble explodes, it's not like the country is going to collapse, the most common prediction is that they'll become "Japan 2.0" where the country is functional but trapped in anemic growth because they won't let zombie businesses fail.

Re:China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says by coffeevradar on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @08:42PM (#14414569)
Yeah, it's more like people have been waiting for decades for a day of reckoning for Japan in the sense that the country is still very productive in many senses but has yet to escape its extremely long-term recession. Japan has been punished enough.

It's quite tragic.

Re:China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says by toomuchtodo on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @09:18PM (#14414692)
Punished? Late stage first world economies with structural issues (an aging population, enourmous entitlement obligations) can escape recessions (stagnation, really) no more than humans can escape the heat death of the universe.
Re:China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says by tlear on Thursday May 25, 2017 @03:07AM (#14415788)
Huge problem in China is that unlike Japan it is not a uniform country. Income is VERY unevenly distributed geographically. Japan can stay in zombie state because even in stagnation it is pretty nice place to live for most people. The poor areas of China can not afford stagnation. Elite knows this and dreads it, why Vancouver housing market is nuts? Because when you live in China and have $$ you really want to have a place to bolt to or at least have your kids be somewhere else when the proverbial shit hits the fan.
Re:China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says by ryandamm on Thursday May 25, 2017 @12:13AM (#14415259)
Pettis quantifies it (elsewhere in his articles). He's gone on record that there's going to be an explicit or implicit write down, and China's average GDP growth is going to be well below 5% (averaging more like 2-3%) by 2020. I think those numbers are roughly correct.

What appeals to me about Pettis's analysis is it's rooted in a simple quantitative model that rests on accounting identities. When you've got a model that fundamental, it's easier to make strong predictions.

Also, "markets being irrational" is a claim about asset bubbles. What we're discussing here is much larger, and subject to its own laws of dynamics. It's not a bubble, per se -- it's more like a bad loan that keeps getting rolled over and bigger, and no one acknowledges the loan won't be repaid. Someone is going to lose out, but the day you can't cover the interest payments is the day you have to acknowledge the loss.

In the case of China in 2017, the debt is held by banks, who are functionally insolvent if the bad loans (usually to property developers and commercial entities) were called in. Many of these commercial entities (large, state-owned enterprises, or state-adjacent conglomerates) simply have no possible way to service the actual loans, short of rolling over more debt.

This isn't about asset prices, or a bigger fool bidding up the price of, say, housing stock: it's about the ratio of debt to productive capital. And the reason debt ballooned post 2008 is because the regular investment engine (mostly infrastructure and housing) had started to lose steam. The growth in debt in the economy was a rational response to the need to keep growth numbers high.

But deferring the reckoning doesn't make it better. Though it's held in the corporate sector, much of China's debt behaves almost like revolving consumer credit in the US.

(Also: one form of reckoning is flat growth for an extended period of time; Japan's lost decade is entering its third decade now, and systemic debt is still really bad. Pettis holds up Japan as one example of how not to correct the imbalances.)

Re:China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says by stupidhn on Thursday May 25, 2017 @07:59AM (#14416757)
>He's gone on record that there's going to be an explicit or implicit write down, and China's average GDP growth is going to be well below 5% (averaging more like 2-3%) by 2020.

But I'd hardly describe that as a "reckoning". It sounds more like a predictable "regression to the mean"

China's unprecedented growth is unsustainable; people know this. Case in point: this article.

Re:China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says by codingmyway on Thursday May 25, 2017 @08:08AM (#14416794)
This is classic Minsky ponzi finance. I wait to see revelations of fraud and corruption that have been hidden too.
Re:China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says by hkmurakami on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @09:04PM (#14414655)
>People have been waiting decades for Japan's post-boom day of reckoning and we've not seen it.

We saw the bust in the early 90's.

Re:China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says by kadfasd4324 on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @11:31PM (#14415133)
Nikkei peaked at 40k in 1990; it has been hovering around 10-20k ever since.
Re:China Can’t Sustain Its Debt-Fueled Binge, Moody’s Says by tonyedgecombe on Thursday May 25, 2017 @04:23AM (#14416013)
That 40k price was after a huge asset price bubble.