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Re:Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters by erikpukinskis on Monday May 22, 2017 @05:59PM (#14397265)
I think it's interesting to think about the way such a system is a hybrid of different political systems.

At the fishery level it's not communistic... But it's also not capitalistic. The fishery isn't owned by a single profit driven entity, it's a democracy or a beurocrasy, or however they have it set up.

At the boat level it's a single profit driven entity, which is purely capitalistic

On the boat itself you have a monarchy: the captain is the king and you do what she says.

We spend too much time bickering over capitalism vs communism vs socialism vs anarchism, but to me the question is which structure for which resource. The political landscape never was monolithic and never will be.

Right now we are way over-using capitalism at the global level. But it doesn't need to go away. It just doesn't seem to work for watershed management, health care, etc.

Re:Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters by nickik on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @09:47AM (#14401113)
You are missing some aspects of the problem. Whole point behind free-market capitalism, is the creation of property rights and then allowing trade between them.

Fisherman (with potentially outsider) creating a set up a property rights institutions maximise their own profits is exactly what free-market capitalism is all about. Voting in a private club that you can only get into if you fulfil several requirements is NOT DEMOCRACY, only voting.

That's what people like Hayek are talking about things like local knowledge. There is a hole field of economics that try work on these issues, property rights economics, constitutional economics, economics of clubs. There is a subfield called "free-market environmentalism" that tries to use property-right economics to achieve better outcomes for the environment.

The same problem applies to your idea that a captain is a king. The owner of the ship has the power to set up whatever he thinks is the most effective way to get people to fish with the limitation that they have to volunteer to join him.

So the reason free-market capitalist are free-market capitalist is because it allows free people associating with each other create the institutions that solve their problem in the most effective way.

Also I want to point out that none of these things are anti-state, a state can need to provide the legal system that allows for such institutions to be created and needs to enforce the contracts.

Some things that might be of interest:

- Governing the Commons: The Evolution of Institutions for Collective Action

- Choosing in Groups: Analytical Politics Revisited

- Free Market Environmentalism

Re:Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters by CWuestefeld on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @11:10AM (#14401871)
And so problems like climate change can be seen as a problem where we insist that things be handled collectively, where we then run into a tragedy of the commons. If our property rights model allowed for ownership of the atmosphere in some fashion, then there would be some aggrieved party who could get restitution from polluters, thus eliminating the externality that messes up our current system.
Re:Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters by nickik on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @02:45PM (#14403993)
Sadly property right economics will not be helpful for climate change by itself, that's more about local resource management.

Constitutional economics could have some insights into how to set up a group of nations working together on a common solution.

Re:Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters by 51stpage on Monday May 22, 2017 @08:19PM (#14397871)
I really appreciate your insight that different political structures work better for different scales and different situations. I suppose that's intuitively obvious but I hadn't ever considered it.
Re:Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters by Double_Cast on Monday May 22, 2017 @09:47PM (#14398237)
You might wanna check out the story of Edward Lampert (the CEO of Sears). Ayn Rand inspired him to pit departments against one another. Sears devolved into a battle royale and profits dropped like a rock.
Re:Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters by narrowrail on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @05:09AM (#14408600)
I listened to the first earnings call when Lampert took the helm at Sears, and he said to think of Sears as a real estate company. In other words, I don't think he thought a lot about Sears potential as a retailer.
Re:Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters by aeorgnoieang on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @09:53AM (#14401161)
That's a really weird inspiration to take from Ayn Rand. Any source with more details about this?
Re:Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters by Double_Cast on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @03:21PM (#14404324)
I don't remember my personal source. Wikipedia citation [15] seems pretty comprehensive.

[15] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-07-11/at-sears-...

> Plagued by the realities threatening many retail stores, Sears also faces a unique problem: Lampert. Many of its troubles can be traced to an organizational model the chairman implemented five years ago, an idea he has said will save the company. Lampert runs Sears like a hedge fund portfolio, with dozens of autonomous businesses competing for his attention and money. An outspoken advocate of free-market economics and fan of the novelist Ayn Rand, he created the model because he expected the invisible hand of the market to drive better results. If the company’s leaders were told to act selfishly, he argued, they would run their divisions in a rational manner, boosting overall performance.

Re:Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters by narrowrail on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @05:29AM (#14408696)
Which is odd since he only became CEO in 2013, "In January 2013, it was announced that Lampert would take over as chief executive officer at Sears after Louis D'Ambrosio stepped down due to family health matters, which took effect in May 2013."
Re:Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters by sogen on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @12:15PM (#14402472)
I think it was on metafilter
Re:Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters by pjc50 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @05:09AM (#14399890)
There's some classic economic work on "the theory of the firm" by Coase that really gets into this question. Within companies, it's not an internal market but some kind of autocracy. Why? Coase makes an argument about transactional and informational costs.
Re:Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters by geon on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:26AM (#14400154)
It would be interesting to have the departments of a company interact based on capitalism.

Sales would invest in RnD, and buy services from IT. HR would would need to focus on high quality services, not dictating unwanted routines.

Profit could be extracted as a tax, and all departments could be required to just break even (with an allowed buffer for investments spanning multiple years).

Re:Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters by dagw on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:37AM (#14400187)
It would be interesting to have the departments of a company interact based on capitalism.

I've worked at such companies and it kind of sucks. Everybody optimizes for their local optima without any concern for what is good for the company. People end up a lot less willing to lend a hand to a 'rival' groups, and projects that would be good for the company as a whole end up scrapped because the individual departments involved cannot agree on how to spread the profits/risks internally. Also a lot of work ends up duplicated because it is 'cheaper' to get someone in your department to do it rather than to 'pay' a rival department to be allowed to use their solution.

Basically you end up losing many of the advantages of scale that a big company should provide without gaining most of the advantages of flexibility and nimbleness that a small company should provide

Re:Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters by 51stpage on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @08:29AM (#14400613)
What about the opposite? What if every team department had a pool of tokens representing their services that they had to give away in a certain time period. I suppose tokens are the same thing as money but I like the shift from "Gimme, Gimme" to "Hey, I've got plenty, let me give you some." Each department would also be accountable for how many tokens they collected from other teams.

I'm not sure how you would work out how many tokens a department has to give. My hope is that there would be a way to incentivize going outside your team/department to get help.

Re:Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters by dagw on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @08:33AM (#14400641)
Maybe I'm naive, but if you remove any disincentive to do so I find that most people, on an individual level, are more than happy to lend a hand to other departments and many people rather enjoy the variety and novelty of the projects that this can entail. I don't think it needs to to be actively incentivized as much you just need to remove as many barriers as possible for doing so.
Re:Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters by pjc50 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @08:29AM (#14400616)
By "interesting" you mean "failure"?

OK, so it's not automatically a disaster, but companies have attempted to do this with "virtual org" and clouds of freelancers. It only works for certain types of piecework and small organisations. For larger things it's simply impossible to write the required contracts. This is part of why the London Underground privatisation failed: contract documents were heading into the millions of words and still inadequate to describe the working relationships.

Re:Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters by geon on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @01:51AM (#14407846)
Failure is often more interesting.
Re:Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters by chrisbennet on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @10:30AM (#14401473)
A family member worked for IBM. Her department would buy non-IBM PC's because it was cheaper than buying from their own company. Helping out "the competition" within your own company doesn't help you meet your department numbers even if it would help the company as a whole.