News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by CJefferson on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @04:49PM (#14259921)
Limited companies go bankrupt all the time. Do we consider it an "ethical failure" when some VC funded company folds, leaving a whole bunch of people they owe money to with nothing?
Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by lf275 on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @06:03PM (#14260599)
It's not an ethical failure because most of the participants understand that it is high risk/reward. That is why most start-up firms offer equity to their employees, and it is almost impossible for a new startup to borrow debt from banks (unless its personally guaranteed, or extremely expensive) before it has gained traction with its business model.

On the other hand, governments are perceived to be reliable borrowers, so they can receive low interest rate loans and are expected to repay their debt. There is not really a way for governments to issue equity like companies, so if governments become lackadaisical about paying their debts, then we should expect their loans to become much more expensive as well, and this could aggravate the financial distress of many high indebted public entities that are already struggling to pay the bills.

Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by pedasmith on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @07:24PM (#14261145)
Puerto Rico bonds were paying 8.7% when US Treasuries paid about 2%. I'd say that any competent investor knows perfectly well that Puerto Rico might well not honor the bonds.
Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by vkou on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @06:30PM (#14260801)
> this could aggravate the financial distress of many high indebted public entities that are already struggling to pay the bills.

Governments don't make payments at adjustable-interest rates. If sovereign borrowing rates rise, because the financial markets decide that sovereigns have a higher rate of default then they thought before, this doesn't affect outstanding debt - only the ability to get more.

Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by lf275 on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @06:39PM (#14260857)
Most governments don't receive loans with adjustable rates, but they plan their budgets with the expectation that they can refinance their debt once their loans mature. Most governments have regular debt maturities that they must meet, and they would be in big trouble if they can't refinance those loans.

It is also important to separate local governments from the sovereign federal government. The federal government is allowed to print money to cover its debts, which dramatically reduces the concern among creditors that it may default. Local governments have no such option, however; they can only address their deficit by reducing spending or raising taxes. Both options are politically unpopular (hence why most politicians do nothing and pass the buck to their successors), and may be counterproductive because the local citizens can just pack up and move if taxes are increased, or if public services deteriorate.

Edit: I forgot to mention that the most attractive way to raise government revenue is to actually attract more productive citizens to move there and increase the tax base (aka how California managed to dig itself out of its immediate financial hole). However, this is obviously very difficult to achieve in practice.

Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by vkou on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @06:56PM (#14260975)
Thank you for this caveat.

Yes, that is true. Governments typically don't pay off the principal on their loan - more specifically, as soon as the loan matures, they take out another loan.

This is not a problem if you've got some 30-year bonds maturing (As a dollar borrowed 30 years ago is trivial to pay off today), but this is a big problem if most of your debt is in the form of rolling, 1-year, or 3-year bonds.

This is still quite different from a mortgage you need to renegotiate every 5 years, or where the interest rate is pegged to prime + X%.

Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by nwatson on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @06:48PM (#14260910)
Governments can borrow in currency not their own. This becomes not only debt at adjustable rates, but debt at "adjustable principal" as well. Risky.
Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by azernik on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @06:06PM (#14260626)
It's understood to be low-risk, but not zero risk.
Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by lf275 on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @06:31PM (#14260805)
True, I don't look at it as an ethical failure either way. I am saying, however, that the public/federal government have an interest in maintaining the perception that that is a one-off and state/local governments are reliable borrowers. If a string of bankruptcies happen in a short time window, this could quickly erode the perception that state governments are reliable, and negatively impact many other states that are struggling and need low-interest financing just to pay the bills.

For anybody who has taken a look at the balance sheets of public entities, it is shocking how poorly capitalized many of these local governments actually are, and how aggressive some of their financial assumptions are (with low interest rates and 50% of their capital held in debt, a 8% assumed rate of return is extremely aggressive, and they would need financial rock-stars to achieve this at their scale). If investors are spooked, then interest rates could spike for many other government loans, and cause contagion among local government entities that would eventually require the federal government to intervene.

Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by prostoalex on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @11:25PM (#14262197)
Those people are not stuck with the bankrupt startup for the rest of their lives. The same cannot be said about Puerto Ricans.
Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by throwaway2048 on Thursday May 04, 2017 @01:18AM (#14262608)
Being stuck with crippling debt that destroys GDP faster than it can be repaid (leading to a deflationary spiral that makes it impossible to EVER pay your debt) is a massively worse alternative, which you are also stuck with the rest of your life.
Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by ericd on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @05:27PM (#14260292)
A little bit, yeah. The leaders of those businesses made promises to people, and they failed to uphold them.
Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by ceejayoz on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @06:27PM (#14260786)
If I promise to meet you for coffee, it's understood that there's a silent "but not if my wife winds up in the ER".

If I promise to pay you back a loan, it's understood that the interest rate you'll charge me is related to the risk of my defaulting and that the option exists.

Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by ericd on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @07:17PM (#14261103)
That interest rate doesn't in any way relieve you of your moral responsibility to pay back that loan, in my opinion, just because you run into financial trouble. People defaulting just because it's legal causes interest rates to rise on others, and imposes costs on the rest of society. Of course, it's important for social reasons for there to be legal ways to get out of inescapable debt, but you're not off the hook morally, in my opinion, if you bit off more than you could chew. It's both your fault and that of the lender if you borrow more than you can handle.

This isn't usually some freak unforeseeable accident. The 2007 crisis was caused as much by people overlevering themselves to take advantage of a situation as it was by predatory lending practices and greed/fraud at the I Bank level. But people love to put all the blame on the banks, and none on themselves for not being prudent.

Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by foobarrio on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @08:35PM (#14261513)
If a bank is making loans at rates that do not cover defaults they should go out of business because they are crappy at their job.

If I take my car to a mechanic am I expected to know as much about my car as the mechanic? Do I tear down and redo/inspect any work they do to my car? If I go to a mechanic and ask them if it's okay to do something dangerous to my car and they go ahead and do it, I'd say the mechanic is way more on the hook morally than the idiot driver.

Similarly if I go and ask for a 1,000,000 USD mortgage when I'm only making $20,000 USD a year and have no savings or investments and the bank gives it me... You're saying both me and bank are on equal moral footing? You would then have to ask what incentive the bank had to give me the money. Either they are greedy and wanted to charge a super high rate or they intended to pass the buck and sell the loan which can be fraud if they lie about my credit worthiness to the next buyer of the loan.

Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by ericd on Thursday May 04, 2017 @02:10AM (#14262837)
I would say that your asking for a $1M USD mortgage with a $20k income would be reckless at best, and dishonest at worst. Yes, they're also at fault, but you're not blameless in that case. You have a personal and societal responsibility to spend within your means. To do otherwise causes damage to the rest of us.
Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by jacobush on Thursday May 04, 2017 @07:30AM (#14264051)
It could though cause damage to his social standing by not overspending...
Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by ericd on Thursday May 04, 2017 @08:19PM (#14270126)
I don't buy it. If your friends judge you based on whether you have a nice car rather than your character and what you accomplish, it's time to get new friends.
Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by wonderwonder on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @11:47PM (#14262301)
While I agree we should do our best to pay our debts, morality shifts with circumstances. If I have an enough debt where it is affecting the lives and future of my children and I have an option to declare bankruptcy to give them a better life, am I not morally obligated to do so as a parent? I would argue that I am.

Morality is a human defined concept. We also only seem to apply it to individuals, a company declares bankruptcy, fires a large number of employees and then rights itself society shrugs but if a person does it we cast shame on them.

Life is short, if I dig myself into a whole with the best of intentions, I am not going to spend years living a lesser life and condemning my kids to that same lesser life if there is a reset button.

Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by ericd on Thursday May 04, 2017 @02:34AM (#14262938)
Morality is human defined, but it's the set of ideas that, along with a society's institutions, distinguishes a well functioning society from a corrupt and dysfunctional one. It's the set of memes that allows us to function at the massive group scales that we operate at, that allows us to trust strangers to run things that are vital to our own survival. And when that breaks down, and people start acting in their short-sighted self interest (or you think you see them doing that, anyway), you start seeing that trust crack. I think we've been seeing that happening in the US for a while, and I think corporatism separated from a sense of decency and personal accountability while at work is a large part of the cause.

I don't think that it's right for a company to do what you describe wantonly. I absolutely think we should shame companies when they mistreat people.

And what you're describing with your children is selfish, but it's an understandable selfishness - your children are of course going to be a higher priority to you than society at large, as it is with almost all parents.

Anyway, my idea about the obligations of fulfilling one's debts seems to be an unpopular one, and I'm sure I won't change anyone's mind, especially if they've chosen to take on a lot of debt themselves, so I'll stop here.

Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by tanderson92 on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @07:55PM (#14261318)
> It's both your fault and that of the lender if you borrow more than you can handle.

Then why does the borrower have moral culpability in addition to financial culpability, while the lender only takes a financial haircut.

Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by ericd on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @08:10PM (#14261400)
I think lenders have an ethical responsibility to not put borrowers in a bad position as well.
Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by ceejayoz on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @09:03PM (#14261631)
> But people love to put all the blame on the banks, and none on themselves for not being prudent.

Yes, I blame the supposed experts, not the folks they suckered.

Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by whatnotests on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @05:39PM (#14260394)
Define "promise" in this context though.

VCs invest in opportunity, not promises.

Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by ericd on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @07:13PM (#14261081)
The person I replied to specifically mentioned owing money, so I took it to mean that he wasn't talking about the investors. I do think that a business owner who is unable to pay people he owes should feel bad about it, and should make every effort to pay them back. Just because he's legally off the hook doesn't take him off the hook ethically, in my opinion.

But regardless, you should try to make your investors whole, if at all possible. I view that as your ethical responsibility as someone who receives investment.

Re:Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government ... by goneri on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @05:43PM (#14260430)
Promises only bind those who believe. Those pepole are paid to evaluate the risk.