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Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by mcphage on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @10:34PM (#14200035)
> “What is a car?” Lang mused recently via phone from her home in Toronto. “You might say that a car is a space that's used for movement,” she proposed. “That would be tomo tawa. If you’re struck by a car though, it might be a hard object that’s hitting me. That’s kiwen utala.”

So then how would you tell other people that you were struck by a car? Would you say you were hit by a "kiwen utala"? "I was hit by a hard object". Okay, does that mean a book fell on your head? Or someone bumped into you?

And if "towo tawa" is a "space used for movement", then how would you distinguish it between any of the other spaces used for movement, like a bus, train, airplane, elevator, shipping container, bobsled...

One of the values of a word like "car" is it can be used to refer to something independently of how it's being used, which is helpful when things can be used in more than 1 way, and you want people to understand you're talking about the same object in each case.

Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by sago on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:37PM (#14200250)
It depends what you were trying to communicate.

toki pona has a reduced vocabulary. It builds more complex concepts that other languages have lexemes for as compounds, and these are somewhat standard, though more flexible than in other languages ('tomo tawa' is almost always the way to say 'car'). All languages do this, of course, e.g. a firefly / lightning bug, but toki pona does it more.

Most people would understand 'tomo tawa li utala e mi' to mean a car hit me, unless the context indicated otherwise (e.g. we're discussing trains). If it really mattered that it was a private passenger vehicle and not a bus, or some other kind of vehicle, you'd have to say more. But if I said 'I was hit by a vehicle', you wouldn't necessarily need to know exactly what kind. You would probably infer that I didn't mean an aircraft.

Part of the zen of toki pona is realising how little you need to specify.

And again, this happens to a lesser extent in other languages. You typically don't specify pronouns with Japanese verbs, relying on the context, with the occasional explicit pronoun as a topic marker (which Japanese language learners from, say, English, use much more often than native speakers).

Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by moneytalks on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:07PM (#14200142)
My toddler says "bye bye" when he can't find a toy, runs out of water or food, when the movie is over, etc. Unless rushed, it is kind of fun to learn to communicate better with him with each passing day. His creativity in using his very small vocabulary to describe new concepts or desires is fascinating.

Just don't think I can get as excited about adults wearing diapers for fun.

Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by schoen on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:04PM (#14200129)
> bus,

Maybe "tomo tawa kulupu" 'group travel space'

> train,

Maybe "tomo tawa linja" 'long stringy travel space' (or alternately "tomo tawa pi kiwen linja tu" 'travel space of two stringy solids')

> airplane,

I've previously used "tomo tawa kon" 'air travel space'

> elevator,

Maybe "tomo tawa anpa" 'downward travel space'

> shipping container,

Maybe "tomo tawa esun" 'commercial travel space'

> bobsled...

Maybe "tomo tawa pi telo lete kiwen" 'hard cold water's travel space'

I'll also add that there's been some debate between "tomo tawa" 'travel building, travel space' and "ilo tawa" 'travel tool' for vehicles. I would certainly regard a bicycle as an ilo tawa because you don't enter inside of it. (A problem with "tomo tawa" is that "tomo tawa kon" 'air travel space' is arguably ambiguous between an airport and an airplane!)

Although toki pona is super-bad for any kind of precision, you can often figure out how to express more than you might first think. :-)

Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by mcphage on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:35PM (#14200237)
> A problem with "tomo tawa" is that "tomo tawa kon" 'air travel space' is arguably ambiguous between an airport and an airplane!

That's the problem with all of these—they're all ambiguous. Which is fine if the person you're talking to knows which you mean, but when you're talking about something new, you have no way of actually making clear what you mean. It seems like the best you can do is reinvent agglutinative languages, badly.

Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by sago on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:43PM (#14200276)
> agglutinative

?!

Do you really mean that?

All languages have compound lexemes. And all languages can use description to disambiguate.

The balance in toki pona is at a dramatically different point to English, which has a relatively large functional vocabulary. But it isn't a difference in kind. And most conlangs, in my experience, rely more on compounds than English.

The "Badly" at the end seems to drop your comment from curious bafflement to prejudice. Why would it be bad?

Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by mcphage on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @12:01AM (#14200343)
> Why would it be bad?

Because agglutinative languages have much more sophisticated systems and morphemes for expressing complicated ideas. This reads more like Mark Twain's satire about German (https://www.cs.utah.edu/~gback/awfgrmlg.html).

Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by khedoros1 on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @01:53AM (#14200761)
Those languages also have more than 123 words. Sophistication implies complexity, and Toki Pona was designed to be simple, even to a fault.
Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by robjan on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @03:00AM (#14201024)
In Chinese, an airport is a "airplane field" and a airplane is a compound of the word for "wood" and "table.
Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by godarderik on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @03:08AM (#14201050)
What? An airplane is 飞机,where 飞 = flying and 机 = machine
Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by mrob on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @06:35AM (#14201937)
I think the confusion is because of simplified vs. traditional characters. 机 is made from 木 (wood) and 几 (table) radicals, and in Japanese it really does mean desk/table. But in Chinese it's the simplified form of 機 (machine). The 几 is just a substitute for some more complicated strokes, and 木 is just for the sound.
Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by Gigablah on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @06:43AM (#14201962)
Even then the character by itself doesn't mean "airplane", you need to pair it with 飞.
Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by dbrgn on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @02:57AM (#14201013)
Maybe airport could be written as "tomo pi tawa kon"?
Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by fusiongyro on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:46PM (#14200285)
The value of Toki Pona is in making fewer distinctions rather than more. You really couldn't have the conversation we're having right now in Toki Pona, but that's not what it's made for. Criticizing it in these terms is a bit like criticizing Perl because it's hard to read over the phone.
Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by yiyus on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @09:14AM (#14202641)
I see it more like praising Toki Pona because of its simplicity is a bit like praising Brainfuck for its simplicity. Sure, it is easy to learn its handful of commands, but it cannot be used for anything practical.
Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by fusiongyro on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @09:37AM (#14202793)
If your imagination is limited to the practical, this isn't the hobby for you.
Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by yiyus on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @12:14PM (#14204320)
I'm not looking for a hobby, but thank you for the hint.

I was just pointing out that your analogy with Perl was not a very fortunate one. What was being criticized about the language is that it is so simple that it needs too much composition to express ideas (which in my opinion should be the main goal of a language).

In your analogy, you make it look like if the problem was that this (hackernews? an internet forum? written language?) is not the right medium to communicate using Toki Pona, as a phone is not the right medium for Perl programs. My question is: what would the right medium be?

Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by fusiongyro on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @01:10PM (#14204914)
See, you're overcomplicated things so much with your precision, you're really missing the point. You can communicate by giving flowers, but you won't be able to convey this conversation with them. Nevertheless, on the occasions when you might use flowers to say something to someone, if you instead try to use a lengthy thread on Hacker News, your precision level will be very high but you will completely miss the point.

You should consider taking up Toki Pona as a hobby. You should try and take meeting notes in Toki Pona at work. You'll be surprised at what you find yourself thinking—even though you won't be able to use the notes in the way you would your normal notes.

Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by cnlevy on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @02:41AM (#14200953)
Right. Let's translate this whole thread into Toki Pona !
Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by fusiongyro on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @10:36AM (#14203316)
What's funny about that is, it would turn the thread into "I like Good Talk," "I think this: Good Talk is yucky!" which exposes as much as it conceals. :)
Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by personlurking on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @04:54AM (#14201513)
An aside, regarding transportation: In Brazilian Portuguese - specifically used by those from the state of Minas Gerais - the word trem (train) has taken on extra meanings. The story goes that when trains came to the region, people from the countryside started calling the objects being transported trains too. Thus trem became 'thing'.

In Brazil, even the formal word for 'thing' (coisa) became a verb (coisar), informally. Meaning you can 'coisar a coisa' (thing the thing). There's even an informal masculine version of 'thing' (coiso), which serves no purpose but to say 'coisa'.

Furthermore, regarding 'thing', one can also use 'troço' (which also means a useless person), 'treco', 'negócio' (business), and 'parada' (stop).

Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by arviewer on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @04:22AM (#14201368)
When we use this language, coming from English, Spanish or Dutch or whatever, we have that as reference. If you would use this language truely, I guess it would mean that you start to think differently about the objects. Maybe the difference between train and car is not that important anymore.
Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by posterboy on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @04:46AM (#14201485)
Indeed, we speak of the cars of a train, while a highway truck with several cars attached is likewise called a train. A railway train is literally a train of railway cars. Then there's the cable car, which is not a train although it runs on tracks, but then again, a track car is a race car for race tracks, which a driver might do training with. And all of them could car-ry car-go.
Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by ars on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @10:54PM (#14200096)
> So then how would you

You don't.

Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by mcphage on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:28PM (#14200216)
Then why did she use it as an example?
Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by schoen on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:43PM (#14200271)
I think Sonja thinks that the ambiguity of toki pona is a feature. (Another way to see it is as a challenge, like a puzzle or a form of constrained writing.)
Re:How to Say (Almost) Everything in a Hundred-Word Language... by posterboy on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @05:01AM (#14201539)
Underspecification is an inherent feature of language. Specificity is an (unrealistic) ideal.