> You're leaving out a lot when you say it'd take you "five minutes with a simple Maven/Gradle build". What's a maven? What's gradle? What's groovy and where can I learn it?

You have similar concerns with node (What's npm? etc...) These are peripheral and necessary knowledge on both platforms.

> Getting from zero to JSON api in node.js is fast by comparison

It's only fast because you already have the knowledge.

Two equally proficient developers in Java and node will set up and get a server up and running in about the same amount of time.

The idea that it's a faster to achieve in a dynamically typed language is a myth.

> It's only fast because you already have the knowledge.

No, when I said "from zero" I meant from zero knowledge.

> You have similar concerns with node (What's npm? etc...)

What's the "etc..."? Install node and you get npm with it.

Writing a REST service IS simpler with Node when going from zero, I know because I have done (or at least attempted) both from zero in the recent past.

> The idea that it's a faster to achieve in a dynamically typed language is a myth.

Doesn't seem like you're open to discussion on this

This is a classic case of you forgetting all the learning and concepts you needed to get to "zero".

I don't think so. Npm is included with node and is very simple to use.

So your main argument is that you have to make two downloads with Java (JDK and Maven) but with Node you need to make one? Seems pretty weak.

It can't be anything else, because after you have Maven, it is literally a single command to set up a REST project using Dropwizard.

Well, to an extent this is a subjective question. With node, you get npm with it, npm is what everyone uses, and npm is clearly what you should be using too. Moreover, the basic functionality of npm is very very easy to understand.

I find the Java ecosystem terrifying by comparison. I have no idea whether Maven is what I should be using or if I should be using something else instead -- having it as a separate download makes a big difference in that regard -- and I have no idea by looking at a typical Maven config file what it does.

You should probably learn to expand your comfort zones more effectively, if the Java ecosystem terrifies you.

It's not a macho thing for me. I use the tools that are easiest to use and do the job. Anyway, I have used a lot of different programming languages, and it's the Java ecosystem specifically that I've always found overwhelming whenever I've tried to dabble with it. So I think the problem is Java, not me.

There's nothing "macho" involved in this, your language describing your own state of mind is inflammatory and (hopefully, for your sake) inaccurate.

You may need to expand your comfort zone with regard to mild hyperbole.

"Terrifying? What if something REALLY happens to you? You used 'terrifying' on the Java ecosystem!"[1]

[1]: http://zenpencils.com/comic/95-louis-c-k-we-dont-think-about...

It's not that it's terrifying. It's just... why make it harder for myself? Even if it's one step (which it isn't), why? If the only reason you can give is I need to expand my comfort zone, sorry, I'll keep my comfort zone small and productivity high.

I wasn't responding to you. The person I responded said, "I find the Java ecosystem terrifying" and I pointed out how silly that statement is.

The command to set up a Dropwizard project according to the getting started guide[0] is:

    mvn archetype:generate -DarchetypeGroupId=io.dropwizard.archetypes -DarchetypeArtifactId=java-simple -DarchetypeVersion=1.0.0

Which spends the first 30 seconds downloading a bunch of stuff before asking you for settings to start off your project. I then read the README it created and ran `mvn clean install` as instructed which started downloads that took 1:40 min only to end in a build failure with multiple large tracebacks.

Running `mvn --help` doesn't help at all and the pom file it creates is 143 lines of hard to read XML.

I've used gradle a little, I'm familiar with bundler/gem, pip, npm and dub. Maven just makes me want to run as far as possible from anything Java related.

[0] http://www.dropwizard.io/1.1.0/docs/getting-started.html

You just described my experience with npm, except there aren't any useful tracebacks, just a note absolving npm of all blame and advising me to contact some random module author.

Edit: and of course with npm the annoying downloads happen every time for each project, instead of once per dependency version...

Not excusing any crashes for npm (having those for any package manager sucks), but `npm init` doesn't download anything or make a project that needs to, it has readable config files and `npm --help` at least gives you a list of commands. A lot of the small stuff goes a long way to making things more approachable.

That's apples and oranges. You would have to set up some Express project or something to do what the Dropwizard archetype is doing.

Also package.json and pom.xml are equally (un)readable. At least Maven project files have a schema to help editors out.

> `npm --help` at least gives you a list of commands

`mvn --help` gives you a list of commands too.

Knowing how to use npm and what packages are useful isn't something that is flashed into your brain when you click download on the Node website.